6 ms·

I would like to have a deep analysis about Telegram. The founder Durov always says like Telegram is secure and it encrypt the message while it's not.

lijogdfljk 4y ago
When using encrypted chats is it not secure? I thought the biggest problem is that we simply don't know - but your comment seems to suggest it's been proven insecure even when using encrypted chats?
- palata 4y ago
  The problem is that people misunderstand the security model in Telegram, and believe that it's e2ee. Except that most features are not, only secret chats are e2ee, and people mostly don't use those (because the whole point of Telegram is the nice group features).
  - lloeki 4y ago
    > only secret chats are e2ee IIRC audio and video calls are E2EE as well (in addition, the four emoji that appear on a call allows both parties to check that no one is eavesdropping)
    - palata 4y ago
      That's not an addition: e2ee requires a way to verify keys. Without that it's not proper e2ee.
  - orangepurple 4y ago
    The main reason to not use e2ee is being able to access, send, and receive messages concurrently on multiple computers at the same time.
    - palata 4y ago
      Yes, and that's a choice. You can choose UX (Telegram) over privacy (Signal), and I am fine with it. Just don't pretend that Telegram is private.
EGreg 4y ago
Telegram had bounties for years, and ran specific challenges and no one ever cracked it to collect the bounty
- aliqot 4y ago
  You say bounty as if it is just one... No, no, my friend. That is the public bounty. What the acronyms and scofflaws are paying is a completely different story.
  - EGreg 4y ago
    wat Look here is the most criticism that was given https://www.cryptofails.com/post/70546720222/telegrams-cryptanalysis-contest https://www.cryptofails.com/post/70546720222/telegrams-crypt...
    - lloeki 4y ago
      Given the date and the reference to SHA1, it's about MTProto 1. MTProto 2 has been vastly improved in all the criticised areas.
- palata 4y ago
  Except that if you are not using secret chats (most people are not), then Telegram is not end-to-end encrypted, is it? Meaning that the server can read the messages.
  - EGreg 4y ago
    Yes except for that. Well most people don’t use Telegram. So maybe their stuff isnt encrypted either. So what? If you want to use it it’s available.
  - orangepurple 4y ago
    If you want e2ee you can have e2ee by selecting it and using it. Simple enough.
plexicle 4y ago
No analysis needed. Telegram holds the keys to decrypt the messages and that's all you need to know. It's why you are able to just login to your Telegram account on another device and magically get all of your message history. So while the tech might be solid, the keys are still out there. They can be leaked. They can be subpoenaed, etc.
- gwd 4y ago
  I like how Matrix handles this: You can either download and store locally a key that you enter into a new device to decrypt the encrypted messages stored on the server; or you have one of your other active devices decrypt its locally stored messages and send them to the new device (using some form of verification to prove you control both devices).
  - tptacek 4y ago
    Until very recently (weeks not months), Matrix servers controlled group membership, and could add arbitrary accounts to your group without permission, thus allowing them to decrypt messages to the group. Matrix servers could also silently add "devices" to your account. https://nebuchadnezzar-megolm.github.io/ https://nebuchadnezzar-megolm.github.io/
    - cvwright 4y ago
      Matrix servers still control group membership, and probably will for a while (ie, months). The vulnerabilities that allowed such users and devices to steal keys have been fixed.
      - tptacek 4y ago
        Control of group membership in Matrix is control of key distribution. That's generally how group secure messaging works. The vulnerabilities didn't allow unauthorized group messengers to "steal" keys; it added unauthorized members to groups, which causes authorized group members to negotiate key relationships with them.
discardedrefuse 4y ago
You can't really compare Signal to Telegram. Signal is a privacy first chat app. Nothing more. Telegram is a entire platform with channels, bots, payments, games, and more. Its more akin to Discord or even WeChat. It can't really be e2ee and do all that. Instead, when you need e2ee for a specific conversation, it has Secret Chats. Its just another feature of Telegram; not its main purpose.
- orangepurple 4y ago
  Telegram has e2ee in the form of "secret chat"
  - palata 4y ago
    Which you mostly don't want to use if you use Telegram. The nice features of Telegram are the ones that are not e2ee!!! Having secret chats is mostly for marketing, to pretend it's private. But it's mostly confusing.

lijogdfljk 4y ago

When using encrypted chats is it not secure? I thought the biggest problem is that we simply don't know - but your comment seems to suggest it's been proven insecure even when using encrypted chats?

palata 4y ago
The problem is that people misunderstand the security model in Telegram, and believe that it's e2ee. Except that most features are not, only secret chats are e2ee, and people mostly don't use those (because the whole point of Telegram is the nice group features).
- lloeki 4y ago
  > only secret chats are e2ee IIRC audio and video calls are E2EE as well (in addition, the four emoji that appear on a call allows both parties to check that no one is eavesdropping)
  - palata 4y ago
    That's not an addition: e2ee requires a way to verify keys. Without that it's not proper e2ee.
- orangepurple 4y ago
  The main reason to not use e2ee is being able to access, send, and receive messages concurrently on multiple computers at the same time.
  - palata 4y ago
    Yes, and that's a choice. You can choose UX (Telegram) over privacy (Signal), and I am fine with it. Just don't pretend that Telegram is private.

EGreg 4y ago

Telegram had bounties for years, and ran specific challenges and no one ever cracked it to collect the bounty

aliqot 4y ago
You say bounty as if it is just one... No, no, my friend. That is the public bounty. What the acronyms and scofflaws are paying is a completely different story.
- EGreg 4y ago
  wat Look here is the most criticism that was given https://www.cryptofails.com/post/70546720222/telegrams-cryptanalysis-contest https://www.cryptofails.com/post/70546720222/telegrams-crypt...
  - lloeki 4y ago
    Given the date and the reference to SHA1, it's about MTProto 1. MTProto 2 has been vastly improved in all the criticised areas.
palata 4y ago
Except that if you are not using secret chats (most people are not), then Telegram is not end-to-end encrypted, is it? Meaning that the server can read the messages.
- EGreg 4y ago
  Yes except for that. Well most people don’t use Telegram. So maybe their stuff isnt encrypted either. So what? If you want to use it it’s available.
- orangepurple 4y ago
  If you want e2ee you can have e2ee by selecting it and using it. Simple enough.

plexicle 4y ago

No analysis needed. Telegram holds the keys to decrypt the messages and that's all you need to know. It's why you are able to just login to your Telegram account on another device and magically get all of your message history. So while the tech might be solid, the keys are still out there. They can be leaked. They can be subpoenaed, etc.

gwd 4y ago
I like how Matrix handles this: You can either download and store locally a key that you enter into a new device to decrypt the encrypted messages stored on the server; or you have one of your other active devices decrypt its locally stored messages and send them to the new device (using some form of verification to prove you control both devices).
- tptacek 4y ago
  Until very recently (weeks not months), Matrix servers controlled group membership, and could add arbitrary accounts to your group without permission, thus allowing them to decrypt messages to the group. Matrix servers could also silently add "devices" to your account. https://nebuchadnezzar-megolm.github.io/ https://nebuchadnezzar-megolm.github.io/
  - cvwright 4y ago
    Matrix servers still control group membership, and probably will for a while (ie, months). The vulnerabilities that allowed such users and devices to steal keys have been fixed.
    - tptacek 4y ago
      Control of group membership in Matrix is control of key distribution. That's generally how group secure messaging works. The vulnerabilities didn't allow unauthorized group messengers to "steal" keys; it added unauthorized members to groups, which causes authorized group members to negotiate key relationships with them.

discardedrefuse 4y ago

You can't really compare Signal to Telegram. Signal is a privacy first chat app. Nothing more. Telegram is a entire platform with channels, bots, payments, games, and more. Its more akin to Discord or even WeChat. It can't really be e2ee and do all that. Instead, when you need e2ee for a specific conversation, it has Secret Chats. Its just another feature of Telegram; not its main purpose.

orangepurple 4y ago
Telegram has e2ee in the form of "secret chat"
- palata 4y ago
  Which you mostly don't want to use if you use Telegram. The nice features of Telegram are the ones that are not e2ee!!! Having secret chats is mostly for marketing, to pretend it's private. But it's mostly confusing.