6 ms·

> Actually giving homes to the homeless would probably be cheaper than whatever we are doing now, even taking into account the mental illness and drug-abuse pro

> Actually giving homes to the homeless would probably be cheaper than whatever we are doing now, even taking into account the mental illness and drug-abuse problems that factor into this. This point is worth reiterating. Homelessness can be solved by providing housing. Yes, homelessness is a complex multi-faceted problem, but the first order solution to the problem is to provide housing. Homelessness is a problem with huge externalities to society. Put another way, homelessness is an enormously expensive solution to the problem of providing space for humans to live.

warent 4y ago
Unfortunately it's more complicated than this. There have been nonprofit organizations and government initiatives to give homeless people space in unoccupied hotels for example. What ends up happening is they generally just destroy the living space in a variety of ways. It's because the majority of homelessness is an issue of mental health. In the USA, there are pretty much zero mental health resources for people in poverty.
- jakelazaroff 4y ago
  The problem is multifaceted. And homeless people are not a monolith. There are large cohorts for whom simply receiving a home would make life significantly easier.
  - newaccount2021 4y ago
- acdha 4y ago
  What sometimes ends up happening. It’s true that we have huge gaps for mental health and substance abuse but there are examples (famously, Salt Lake City) of such programs working. The mixed history says we need to take the problem seriously, not give up.
- faitswulff 4y ago
  There's a positive feedback loop between mental health and housing, so it takes more than tilting either end of the equation to fix it.
- Entinel 4y ago
  > It's because the majority of homelessness is an issue of mental health. This isn't true or at least it doesn't start that way. What people don't understand is that there isn't a single homeless population. You have people who are temporarily homeless and people who are chronically homeless. The temporarily homeless are people who lost jobs, fell on hard times, etc etc. The simplest solution for them is yes to give them housing. The chronically homeless is where things get more complicated and those are the people who typically need mental health and abuse services. The simplest and most efficient thing we can do is help the temporarily homeless and prevent them from becoming chronically homeless.
  - rolph 4y ago
    yes there are different castes of homeless, some do quite well, and are not problematic. others are of disorganized psyche, and cause much of thier own problems, resulting in no one wanting them around.
  - vorpalhex 4y ago
    We're pretty good at getting the temporarily homeless into housing. Obviously any improvements are good, but fundamentally the issue is with the chronically homeless who often have other factors going on.
    - michaelt 4y ago
      > We're pretty good at getting the temporarily homeless into housing. I’ll take tautological statements for $200 please Alex
      - vorpalhex 4y ago
        This is the industry term for people between housing (they can't make rent, they got kicked out, etc). It differentiates from the chronically homeless who can not be rehoused simply by giving them a place to live.
- peatmoss 4y ago
  > What ends up happening is they generally just destroy the living space in a variety of ways. Citation very much needed here. This certainly does happen. But, I don’t believe this the general (i.e. typical) outcome. From what I understand talking to acquaintances who work in this area, wrecking the place is not the typical outcome. And property damage is generally cheaper to address than the constant provision of emergency services. I agree that mental health (and substance use) are major factors in homelessness, but those issues are more or less impossible to address when people are living on the street with no permanent address and no place to keep e.g. a cell phone without it being stolen.
  - vorpalhex 4y ago
    At least a data point here - my city of Austin is buying a hotel to convert into housing for the homeless. This has gone badly. The property sees intense vandalism and destruction, the neighbors are afraid for their safety, and the whole thing is an amazingly expensive boondoggle. [0]: https://www.foxnews.com/us/austin-hotel-purchased-homeless-shelter-vandalized-nearly-every-door-bashed-damage https://www.foxnews.com/us/austin-hotel-purchased-homeless-s... [1]: https://www.statesman.com/story/news/2022/05/16/austin-homeless-hotel-candlewood-suites-vandalism/9748773002/ https://www.statesman.com/story/news/2022/05/16/austin-homel...
    - Vvector 4y ago
      That's a bad example. The unoccupied hotel was vandalized before the homeless were moved in. Yes, it a boondoggle, but nothing to do with homeless.
      - vorpalhex 4y ago
        I don't think it was the local homeowners stealing live copper from the walls.
        threatofrain 4y ago
        Sounds like it could be a ring of criminals who are connected to those who can buy copper.
- carapace 4y ago
  That's a good argument for giving them some other housing arrangement. It's not an argument for leaving them on the street.
- clint 4y ago
  What you describe is not "giving the homeless a home" its giving them a temporary, poor substitute for a home that they have no personal interest in" Also your sweeping statement about the destruction of their living space smells to high heaven prejudiced thinking based on myth or hearsay rather than actual data.
- themitigating 4y ago
  Source on both mental health being the majority and that generally the homeless will destroy the space they are given?
zdragnar 4y ago
Some homeless people don't want to deal with the maintenance of a home. Some homeless people aren't capable of the maintenance of a home due to mental or physical issues. Some homeless people refuse to accept help for mental issues for fear of being trapped in a psych ward. Simply put, you need to split homelessness into temporary and chronic populations. For the temporary group, homelessness is the problem. For the chronic group, it is a symptom. Treating the symptom will not have a long-term impact on much of the population. Source: conversations with a social worker friend who spent years working with the homeless population in our metro area.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- ryukafalz 4y ago
  How many of those chronic homeless would have only been temporarily homeless if they had the security of housing early on before their situation went even further downhill? Sometimes mental issues are purely genetic but often they can also arise from or be exacerbated by trauma. And homelessness sure is traumatic.
- mindslight 4y ago
  > Some homeless people don't want to deal with the maintenance of a home. You've got a good point. These leaves are really starting to pile up, and the snow will be upon us soon. I think I'll just say fuck it and sleep under a bridge, and leave the grounds keeping to the parks department. You did set up a straw man solely to get knocked down, right? In actuality, the idea of giving "housing to everyone" doesn't mean an idyllic single family stick-and-drywall dwelling with a yard, but rather something communal - like a less-populous more-dignified shelter with a modicum of persistent personal space. The maintenance would be institutional, and come out of the same operating budget as administration, utilities, etc. I feel like most of the "some homeless just want to be homeless" argument revolves around baking in assumptions that public housing should come with a bunch of strings attached, to make the residents' lives "better". In your comment, this is the responsibility for maintenance or mental health treatment. Such conditions are what turns people off, not some intrinsic love for sleeping rough.
daniel-cussen 4y ago
foobarian 4y ago
> Homelessness can be solved by providing housing. They used to be called asylums, and the problem is what to do if the homeless person refuses to go. I wonder why you don't hear about homelessness in totalitarian states...
- etchalon 4y ago
  Because totalitarian states don't talk about them?
- themitigating 4y ago
  Asylum is one type of housing for people.
- Hitton 4y ago
  >I wonder why you don't hear about homelessness in totalitarian states... Because vagrancy is punishable by prison time there.
- jotm 4y ago
  Heh, well homeless people are voluntold to gtfo the streets and go to a homeless shelter or get a fine or jail time in Europe...
cscurmudgeon 4y ago
Or by removing barriers for new housing. A lot of these are govt created barriers. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/09/opinion/democrats-blue-states-legislation.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/09/opinion/democrats-blue-st... But yeah let us blame Google.

warent 4y ago

Unfortunately it's more complicated than this. There have been nonprofit organizations and government initiatives to give homeless people space in unoccupied hotels for example. What ends up happening is they generally just destroy the living space in a variety of ways. It's because the majority of homelessness is an issue of mental health. In the USA, there are pretty much zero mental health resources for people in poverty.

jakelazaroff 4y ago
The problem is multifaceted. And homeless people are not a monolith. There are large cohorts for whom simply receiving a home would make life significantly easier.
- newaccount2021 4y ago
acdha 4y ago
What sometimes ends up happening. It’s true that we have huge gaps for mental health and substance abuse but there are examples (famously, Salt Lake City) of such programs working. The mixed history says we need to take the problem seriously, not give up.
faitswulff 4y ago
There's a positive feedback loop between mental health and housing, so it takes more than tilting either end of the equation to fix it.
Entinel 4y ago
> It's because the majority of homelessness is an issue of mental health. This isn't true or at least it doesn't start that way. What people don't understand is that there isn't a single homeless population. You have people who are temporarily homeless and people who are chronically homeless. The temporarily homeless are people who lost jobs, fell on hard times, etc etc. The simplest solution for them is yes to give them housing. The chronically homeless is where things get more complicated and those are the people who typically need mental health and abuse services. The simplest and most efficient thing we can do is help the temporarily homeless and prevent them from becoming chronically homeless.
- rolph 4y ago
  yes there are different castes of homeless, some do quite well, and are not problematic. others are of disorganized psyche, and cause much of thier own problems, resulting in no one wanting them around.
- vorpalhex 4y ago
  We're pretty good at getting the temporarily homeless into housing. Obviously any improvements are good, but fundamentally the issue is with the chronically homeless who often have other factors going on.
  - michaelt 4y ago
    > We're pretty good at getting the temporarily homeless into housing. I’ll take tautological statements for $200 please Alex
    - vorpalhex 4y ago
      This is the industry term for people between housing (they can't make rent, they got kicked out, etc). It differentiates from the chronically homeless who can not be rehoused simply by giving them a place to live.
peatmoss 4y ago
> What ends up happening is they generally just destroy the living space in a variety of ways. Citation very much needed here. This certainly does happen. But, I don’t believe this the general (i.e. typical) outcome. From what I understand talking to acquaintances who work in this area, wrecking the place is not the typical outcome. And property damage is generally cheaper to address than the constant provision of emergency services. I agree that mental health (and substance use) are major factors in homelessness, but those issues are more or less impossible to address when people are living on the street with no permanent address and no place to keep e.g. a cell phone without it being stolen.
- vorpalhex 4y ago
  At least a data point here - my city of Austin is buying a hotel to convert into housing for the homeless. This has gone badly. The property sees intense vandalism and destruction, the neighbors are afraid for their safety, and the whole thing is an amazingly expensive boondoggle. [0]: https://www.foxnews.com/us/austin-hotel-purchased-homeless-shelter-vandalized-nearly-every-door-bashed-damage https://www.foxnews.com/us/austin-hotel-purchased-homeless-s... [1]: https://www.statesman.com/story/news/2022/05/16/austin-homeless-hotel-candlewood-suites-vandalism/9748773002/ https://www.statesman.com/story/news/2022/05/16/austin-homel...
  - Vvector 4y ago
    That's a bad example. The unoccupied hotel was vandalized before the homeless were moved in. Yes, it a boondoggle, but nothing to do with homeless.
    - vorpalhex 4y ago
      I don't think it was the local homeowners stealing live copper from the walls.
      - threatofrain 4y ago
        Sounds like it could be a ring of criminals who are connected to those who can buy copper.
carapace 4y ago
That's a good argument for giving them some other housing arrangement. It's not an argument for leaving them on the street.
clint 4y ago
What you describe is not "giving the homeless a home" its giving them a temporary, poor substitute for a home that they have no personal interest in" Also your sweeping statement about the destruction of their living space smells to high heaven prejudiced thinking based on myth or hearsay rather than actual data.
themitigating 4y ago
Source on both mental health being the majority and that generally the homeless will destroy the space they are given?

zdragnar 4y ago

Some homeless people don't want to deal with the maintenance of a home. Some homeless people aren't capable of the maintenance of a home due to mental or physical issues. Some homeless people refuse to accept help for mental issues for fear of being trapped in a psych ward. Simply put, you need to split homelessness into temporary and chronic populations. For the temporary group, homelessness is the problem. For the chronic group, it is a symptom. Treating the symptom will not have a long-term impact on much of the population. Source: conversations with a social worker friend who spent years working with the homeless population in our metro area.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
ryukafalz 4y ago
How many of those chronic homeless would have only been temporarily homeless if they had the security of housing early on before their situation went even further downhill? Sometimes mental issues are purely genetic but often they can also arise from or be exacerbated by trauma. And homelessness sure is traumatic.
mindslight 4y ago
> Some homeless people don't want to deal with the maintenance of a home. You've got a good point. These leaves are really starting to pile up, and the snow will be upon us soon. I think I'll just say fuck it and sleep under a bridge, and leave the grounds keeping to the parks department. You did set up a straw man solely to get knocked down, right? In actuality, the idea of giving "housing to everyone" doesn't mean an idyllic single family stick-and-drywall dwelling with a yard, but rather something communal - like a less-populous more-dignified shelter with a modicum of persistent personal space. The maintenance would be institutional, and come out of the same operating budget as administration, utilities, etc. I feel like most of the "some homeless just want to be homeless" argument revolves around baking in assumptions that public housing should come with a bunch of strings attached, to make the residents' lives "better". In your comment, this is the responsibility for maintenance or mental health treatment. Such conditions are what turns people off, not some intrinsic love for sleeping rough.

daniel-cussen 4y ago

foobarian 4y ago

> Homelessness can be solved by providing housing. They used to be called asylums, and the problem is what to do if the homeless person refuses to go. I wonder why you don't hear about homelessness in totalitarian states...

etchalon 4y ago
Because totalitarian states don't talk about them?
themitigating 4y ago
Asylum is one type of housing for people.
Hitton 4y ago
>I wonder why you don't hear about homelessness in totalitarian states... Because vagrancy is punishable by prison time there.
jotm 4y ago
Heh, well homeless people are voluntold to gtfo the streets and go to a homeless shelter or get a fine or jail time in Europe...

cscurmudgeon 4y ago

Or by removing barriers for new housing. A lot of these are govt created barriers. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/09/opinion/democrats-blue-states-legislation.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/09/opinion/democrats-blue-st... But yeah let us blame Google.