5 ms·

What would one use as a media for long-long-term storage, taking only into account the resisiliance of the ability to read the data from it? For example if y

What would one use as a media for long-long-term storage, taking only into account the resisiliance of the ability to read the data from it? For example if you wanted to store data in a time capsule for like 100 or 200 and you where ganrateed the people on the other side had a reader capable of reading whatever media, and whatever format you chose.

derwiki 4y ago
Paper? We have family photos from the 1800s. Every bit of computer data I have from the 90 is gone.. except what I printed out.
agumonkey 4y ago
No matter the material, the storage conditions are crucial (sic). You want temperature, humidity, acidity, magnetic stability.
tuatoru 4y ago
Granite. Edit: 100 - 200 years is probably 2 to 5 pandemics, some of which may be considerably worse than the last one; and plenty of time for fires, floods, storms, earthquakes, and/or war (civil or other). Granite has a track record. Some stainless steels might be OK too (not for much longer than 200 years, though). 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleopatra's_Needle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleopatra's_Needle
naikrovek 4y ago
there is no "archive and forget" method. the library of congress uses contemporary storage media (hard drives), and migrates everything to newer storage media as the previous media becomes obsolete and replacement hardware for that media stops being manufactured. they have learned that stockpiling old reading hardware and software isn't sufficient to be able to read that media in the future. they move everything to new media manually and archivists and volunteers work continuously to bring data on hardware more than one generation old into the current generation as everything progresses. source: I read it in a detailed article about the LoC a couple of years ago and have forgotten where. :(
masklinn 4y ago
Paper is a good one but the media is low-density and fragile. Although pre-industrial forms of paper (e.g. cotton paper, or papyrus) might have more long-term resistance than modern wood paper. Fired clay tablets are much more resistant, but lower density (because clay), unless you use a dedicated press maybe (most of the ancient Near East clay tablets were actually fired fortuitously e.g. by a building burning down, that was only rarely intended and most tablets were used as erase-boards). But obviously non-tablet pottery can go through millennia in rather good conditions. Carved wood is also a good idea, but it still needs good conditions and maintenance. Still, in the right storage it can last for centuries (see the Tripitaka Koreana for instance). Leather, parchment, and vellum too, but I think then your main concern will be the degradation of the pigments. If your focus is on longevity above all else, then you can’t beat stone. Though that can still be destroyed. I guess above stone would be highly non-reactive metals, however you’d need a metal which is not very precious as well (e.g. not gold, or silver, or platinum). I’m not very versed into metals and metallurgy, but I’d look towards titanium (it’s extremely reactive but not at normal temperatures), or bronze. At one point there were disks made out of glass (versus the conventional polycarbonate), in theory that gives them infinite lifetime short of being physically destroyed. Though it does assume a compatible drive device.
- mschuster91 4y ago
  > If your focus is on longevity above all else, then you can’t beat stone. Stone can degrade as well. Basalt can absorb CO2 [1], marble is vulnerable to acids [2], and generally acid rain is a huge problem for historic buildings [3], as is bird poop [4]. Probably the only material impervious to damage is diamonds. [1] https://www.geo.uni-hamburg.de/geologie/ueber-das-institut/nachrichtenauflistung/beschleunigtes-verwittern-von-gestein.html https://www.geo.uni-hamburg.de/geologie/ueber-das-institut/n... [2] http://intlstoneworks.com/blog/2018/03/13/substances-that-acid-etch-marble/ http://intlstoneworks.com/blog/2018/03/13/substances-that-ac... [3] https://www.lwl.org/pressemitteilungen/nr_mitteilung.php?urlID=16039 https://www.lwl.org/pressemitteilungen/nr_mitteilung.php?url... [4] https://www.mannheim.de/de/nachrichten/taubenschmutz-und-denkmalschutz https://www.mannheim.de/de/nachrichten/taubenschmutz-und-den...
  - 4y ago
brazzy 4y ago
Get a manufacturer to make you a pressed CD using glass as a base layer and gold as the reflective layer. Glass CDs are actually a thing[1], and a gold reflective layer should not complicated the production that much. I'd actually expect such a CD to last tens of thousands of years. For your requirement of 100 to 200 years, a pressed (not burned) CD might well be sufficient if the storage conditions are optimal (cool, dry, no oxygen). [1] https://www.engadget.com/2006-10-22-near-perfect-glass-cd-hits-stores-in-akihabara-shibuya-for-831.html https://www.engadget.com/2006-10-22-near-perfect-glass-cd-hi...
em500 4y ago
As others have noted, the answer depend a lot on whether your data size is in kilobytes, megabytes, gigabytes or terrabytes. For text (kilobytes) there are a lot more options that for video (gigabytes).
axiolite 4y ago
microfiche "With appropriate, difficult to maintain, storage conditions, this film has a life expectancy of ~500 years." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microform https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microform
epmos 4y ago
No-one else mentioned it, so I might suggest punched tape. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_tape https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_tape There is always a trade-off between mass, durability, and data density. I know you excluded those considerations, but for only 200 years in a time capsule you likely don't want to use large stone blocks or stainless steel. The tape has several advantages. Mylar is very light and kept in the dark at a constant, reasonable temperature is going to last two centuries no problem. You can read the tape by hand, if you need. An 8-bit tape is an inch wide and can be rolled into a canister for your time capsule. Of course, for small amounts of data print English words on acid-free paper. For large amounts, tape is going to blow out the mass budget you didn't know you had because of it's low data density. But there might be a space in there somewhere for a tech I loved as a kid.
Thrymr 4y ago
The Long Now Foundation chose analog etched metal for a Very Long-Term backup [0]. Although their time scale is more link 10,000 years, much longer than you are thinking. [0] https://longnow.org/ideas/02008/08/20/very-long-term-backup/ https://longnow.org/ideas/02008/08/20/very-long-term-backup/

derwiki 4y ago

Paper? We have family photos from the 1800s. Every bit of computer data I have from the 90 is gone.. except what I printed out.

agumonkey 4y ago

No matter the material, the storage conditions are crucial (sic). You want temperature, humidity, acidity, magnetic stability.

tuatoru 4y ago

Granite. Edit: 100 - 200 years is probably 2 to 5 pandemics, some of which may be considerably worse than the last one; and plenty of time for fires, floods, storms, earthquakes, and/or war (civil or other). Granite has a track record. Some stainless steels might be OK too (not for much longer than 200 years, though). 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleopatra's_Needle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleopatra's_Needle

naikrovek 4y ago

there is no "archive and forget" method. the library of congress uses contemporary storage media (hard drives), and migrates everything to newer storage media as the previous media becomes obsolete and replacement hardware for that media stops being manufactured. they have learned that stockpiling old reading hardware and software isn't sufficient to be able to read that media in the future. they move everything to new media manually and archivists and volunteers work continuously to bring data on hardware more than one generation old into the current generation as everything progresses. source: I read it in a detailed article about the LoC a couple of years ago and have forgotten where. :(

masklinn 4y ago

Paper is a good one but the media is low-density and fragile. Although pre-industrial forms of paper (e.g. cotton paper, or papyrus) might have more long-term resistance than modern wood paper. Fired clay tablets are much more resistant, but lower density (because clay), unless you use a dedicated press maybe (most of the ancient Near East clay tablets were actually fired fortuitously e.g. by a building burning down, that was only rarely intended and most tablets were used as erase-boards). But obviously non-tablet pottery can go through millennia in rather good conditions. Carved wood is also a good idea, but it still needs good conditions and maintenance. Still, in the right storage it can last for centuries (see the Tripitaka Koreana for instance). Leather, parchment, and vellum too, but I think then your main concern will be the degradation of the pigments. If your focus is on longevity above all else, then you can’t beat stone. Though that can still be destroyed. I guess above stone would be highly non-reactive metals, however you’d need a metal which is not very precious as well (e.g. not gold, or silver, or platinum). I’m not very versed into metals and metallurgy, but I’d look towards titanium (it’s extremely reactive but not at normal temperatures), or bronze. At one point there were disks made out of glass (versus the conventional polycarbonate), in theory that gives them infinite lifetime short of being physically destroyed. Though it does assume a compatible drive device.

mschuster91 4y ago
> If your focus is on longevity above all else, then you can’t beat stone. Stone can degrade as well. Basalt can absorb CO2 [1], marble is vulnerable to acids [2], and generally acid rain is a huge problem for historic buildings [3], as is bird poop [4]. Probably the only material impervious to damage is diamonds. [1] https://www.geo.uni-hamburg.de/geologie/ueber-das-institut/nachrichtenauflistung/beschleunigtes-verwittern-von-gestein.html https://www.geo.uni-hamburg.de/geologie/ueber-das-institut/n... [2] http://intlstoneworks.com/blog/2018/03/13/substances-that-acid-etch-marble/ http://intlstoneworks.com/blog/2018/03/13/substances-that-ac... [3] https://www.lwl.org/pressemitteilungen/nr_mitteilung.php?urlID=16039 https://www.lwl.org/pressemitteilungen/nr_mitteilung.php?url... [4] https://www.mannheim.de/de/nachrichten/taubenschmutz-und-denkmalschutz https://www.mannheim.de/de/nachrichten/taubenschmutz-und-den...
- 4y ago

brazzy 4y ago

Get a manufacturer to make you a pressed CD using glass as a base layer and gold as the reflective layer. Glass CDs are actually a thing[1], and a gold reflective layer should not complicated the production that much. I'd actually expect such a CD to last tens of thousands of years. For your requirement of 100 to 200 years, a pressed (not burned) CD might well be sufficient if the storage conditions are optimal (cool, dry, no oxygen). [1] https://www.engadget.com/2006-10-22-near-perfect-glass-cd-hits-stores-in-akihabara-shibuya-for-831.html https://www.engadget.com/2006-10-22-near-perfect-glass-cd-hi...

em500 4y ago

As others have noted, the answer depend a lot on whether your data size is in kilobytes, megabytes, gigabytes or terrabytes. For text (kilobytes) there are a lot more options that for video (gigabytes).

axiolite 4y ago

microfiche "With appropriate, difficult to maintain, storage conditions, this film has a life expectancy of ~500 years." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microform https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microform

epmos 4y ago

No-one else mentioned it, so I might suggest punched tape. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_tape https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_tape There is always a trade-off between mass, durability, and data density. I know you excluded those considerations, but for only 200 years in a time capsule you likely don't want to use large stone blocks or stainless steel. The tape has several advantages. Mylar is very light and kept in the dark at a constant, reasonable temperature is going to last two centuries no problem. You can read the tape by hand, if you need. An 8-bit tape is an inch wide and can be rolled into a canister for your time capsule. Of course, for small amounts of data print English words on acid-free paper. For large amounts, tape is going to blow out the mass budget you didn't know you had because of it's low data density. But there might be a space in there somewhere for a tech I loved as a kid.

Thrymr 4y ago

The Long Now Foundation chose analog etched metal for a Very Long-Term backup [0]. Although their time scale is more link 10,000 years, much longer than you are thinking. [0] https://longnow.org/ideas/02008/08/20/very-long-term-backup/ https://longnow.org/ideas/02008/08/20/very-long-term-backup/