51 ms·

Assyrian Soft Power

76 points by Thevet 4y ago

ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
Seems a bit like Christians coopting local religions; making Christian saints from local deities, and integrating local rituals (Yuletide!).
- paxcoder 4y ago
- gumby 4y ago
  Yes, this went both ways: it was not uncommon when an army lost a battle to ask the other guys who their god were and to add them to your collection in the hope it would help next time. In the 9th century or so the catholic church cracked down on a number of these practices. They forced the priests to speak Latin rather than the vernacular (to reduce the doctrinal drift: local priests would adapt their message and anyway many priests had been illiterate) and adopted other practices to make the experience a bit more magical (facing away from the audience etc). And they really enforced the "no gods before me" bit, though not the ban on images. And in a battle you often caused the loser to chuck out their gods and use only the christian one, or were the tables turned you were not to add to your collection of one god.
  - rsynnott 4y ago
    This issue came back from the dead a few times; notably, the Jesuits tried (unsuccessfully, in the end) to convince the Vatican that veneration of ancestors, as practiced in China, was compatible with Christianity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Rites_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Rites_controversy (Modern Catholicism _does_ allow this, but that came much later)
bdbenton 4y ago
Mesopotamian history is fascinating and deserves a lot more attention. It is the oldest root of human civilization itself and gives us insight into the most fundamental aspects of what civilization is today. War is not the only means of conquest. Vietnam was manufacturing and drinking Coca-Cola in the 1960s, and as mentioned here, Germanic religion was interwoven with Christian culture during the Roman conquest of Europe. One interesting and obscure connection is the origin of the words "hell" and "hall", as "hall" means "covered place" and "valhalla" means "hall of the dead" from Old Norse. However, the original Hebrew and Greek is often "גֵּיהִנּוֹם‎" or "γέεννα" meaning "the valley of Hinnom." This is a physical place near Jerusalem where bodies denied a proper burial were burned, and some suggest it was even a region where human sacrifices took place. You may be very surprised at what you find when you look into the origins of things that are taken for granted. Everything has some sort of origin, and historical roots can run very deep. Without looking at things on a deeper level, you are at the mercy of the surface-level understanding from your surrounding culture.
- pyinstallwoes 4y ago
  That have any relation to the word Armageddon as well? Yes ancient cultures are fascinating and should be more relevant in the zeitgeist; especially in respect to their knowledge and sophistication in thinking.
  - wl 4y ago
    Armageddon comes from "Har Megiddo," an actual place of strategic importance and hence the site of many battles named before the name took on apocalyptic connotations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tel_Megiddo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tel_Megiddo
  - mellavora 4y ago
    to add to wl's comment, armageddon took on the meaning of an apocolyptic battle because it was mentioned in the Book of Revelations as the site of the final battle. "Apocalypse" is also a great word. It means literally "the lifting of the veil" or removing the covering, so you can see what is underneath. True story: I was once on vacation in Greece, and saw a strip club called Apocalypse. Based on the signage, they meant that in the sense of revealing hidden pleasures rather than some final battle, but I could also see some ways that visiting that club could lead to a nasty showdown.
personjerry 4y ago
My understanding is that this kind of assimilation of religion is known as "syncreticism" (which I learned from Crusader Kings) and happens often in history, for example Christianity adopting aspects of pagan religions (i.e. Thursday = Thor's Day) or when the Greeks ruled Egypt and invented interpretations of the Egyptian gods in the form of their own (Ptolemy's Egypt, which I learned about from Assassin's Creed)
- thaumasiotes 4y ago
  > for example Christianity adopting aspects of pagan religions (i.e. Thursday = Thor's Day) Is this something that ever happened? There are many documented cases of Christians railing against the names of the days of the week. They just didn't have the power to change them. When Christians did get to name the days of the week, in China, they named them "one", "two", "three", "four", "five", "six", and "day of worship".
  - codeflo 4y ago
    Weren’t both Easter and Christmas non-Christian holidays originally?
    - gumby 4y ago
      Yes, most religions have a midwinter festival of rebirth (e.g. Sol Invictus -- the sun gets weak but is reborn) and a spring fertility festival. I find it odd that the Christians reversed them though: easter is a death/rebirth festival (hence the bunnies, chicks, lambs etc -- people want their fertility symbols at that time) which would make more sense in the midwinter and their god's birth festival is in the middle of winter for some reason.
      - rsynnott 4y ago
        In early Christianity, Easter was _by far_ the more significant holiday (Christians didn't even celebrate Christmas until a few centuries AD) so Christmas probably got whatever slot was left. Interestingly, in Islam, Jesus is usually considered to have been born in the Spring or Summer.
hashin 4y ago
This is true for Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism or any other religion that has happened to be caught in the political machinations of the enterprising state. I am reminded of St. Brigit [1], who was a Celtic goddess who was co-opted by the Catholic Church. Her pastoral associations have stayed intact, with the cultural 'need' for the deity protected, the co-opting makes a lot more sense. Mughal Emperor Akbar's effort to synthesise Islam, Hinduism and other Indic beliefs to great Din-i-Ilahi [2] is yet another prominent example of hegemonic powers using their social clout to increase soft power by co-opting the beliefs of the locals. The Millet system of Ottoman Empire [3], was geared towards 'respecting' local customs, personal law and protecting local systems of authority in lieu of their support to the Ottoman yoke. This was later adopted by the British in India and their other colonies, where they went to great lengths to establish Madrasas (Islamic education centres) [4] and Sanskrit colleges [5] to further this. [1] https://www.britannica.com/topic/Brigit https://www.britannica.com/topic/Brigit [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Din-i_Ilahi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Din-i_Ilahi [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millet_(Ottoman_Empire) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millet_(Ottoman_Empire) [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliah_University https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliah_University [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Hastings#Governor-General https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Hastings#Governor-Gener...
bashmelek 4y ago
I realize I’m in the minority here but as a Christian (Catholic) I’d like to draw a distinction between folk customs and the actual religion. For example, with Easter, if we are to believe the Venerable Bede, the word comes from Eostre, an Anglo-Saxon celebration and goddess. Many customs we associate with the holiday also come from them. But to say Easter the holiday comes from Eostre and is just Christian syncretism is highly Anglo centric. The celebration of the resurrection in Christianity is called Pascha and similar names in other languages, clearly associating itself with Passover just as the story of the Passion does. Likewise other cases, such as with various saints, often it is not that local gods were changed to be saints and kept as such, but the folk practice was redirected towards something more suitable for Christianity. Sometimes this did result in a lot of old folklore sticking around. I know this might sound 90 percent the same to many, but the 10 percent I would like to be clear on.
- nerdponx 4y ago
  In my understanding of ancient society, there was much less of a distinction between "religion" and "folk custom" than we have today.
  - Bayart 4y ago
    Depends on what you call "ancient society", if there's such a thing. There were highly organised forms of religion in Rome or Egypt, with clear boundaries as to what was part of the state religion and what wasn't.

76 points by Thevet 4y ago

Seems a bit like Christians coopting local religions; making Christian saints from local deities, and integrating local rituals (Yuletide!).

paxcoder 4y ago
gumby 4y ago
Yes, this went both ways: it was not uncommon when an army lost a battle to ask the other guys who their god were and to add them to your collection in the hope it would help next time. In the 9th century or so the catholic church cracked down on a number of these practices. They forced the priests to speak Latin rather than the vernacular (to reduce the doctrinal drift: local priests would adapt their message and anyway many priests had been illiterate) and adopted other practices to make the experience a bit more magical (facing away from the audience etc). And they really enforced the "no gods before me" bit, though not the ban on images. And in a battle you often caused the loser to chuck out their gods and use only the christian one, or were the tables turned you were not to add to your collection of one god.
- rsynnott 4y ago
  This issue came back from the dead a few times; notably, the Jesuits tried (unsuccessfully, in the end) to convince the Vatican that veneration of ancestors, as practiced in China, was compatible with Christianity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Rites_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Rites_controversy (Modern Catholicism _does_ allow this, but that came much later)

bdbenton 4y ago

Mesopotamian history is fascinating and deserves a lot more attention. It is the oldest root of human civilization itself and gives us insight into the most fundamental aspects of what civilization is today. War is not the only means of conquest. Vietnam was manufacturing and drinking Coca-Cola in the 1960s, and as mentioned here, Germanic religion was interwoven with Christian culture during the Roman conquest of Europe. One interesting and obscure connection is the origin of the words "hell" and "hall", as "hall" means "covered place" and "valhalla" means "hall of the dead" from Old Norse. However, the original Hebrew and Greek is often "גֵּיהִנּוֹם‎" or "γέεννα" meaning "the valley of Hinnom." This is a physical place near Jerusalem where bodies denied a proper burial were burned, and some suggest it was even a region where human sacrifices took place. You may be very surprised at what you find when you look into the origins of things that are taken for granted. Everything has some sort of origin, and historical roots can run very deep. Without looking at things on a deeper level, you are at the mercy of the surface-level understanding from your surrounding culture.

pyinstallwoes 4y ago
That have any relation to the word Armageddon as well? Yes ancient cultures are fascinating and should be more relevant in the zeitgeist; especially in respect to their knowledge and sophistication in thinking.
- wl 4y ago
  Armageddon comes from "Har Megiddo," an actual place of strategic importance and hence the site of many battles named before the name took on apocalyptic connotations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tel_Megiddo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tel_Megiddo
- mellavora 4y ago
  to add to wl's comment, armageddon took on the meaning of an apocolyptic battle because it was mentioned in the Book of Revelations as the site of the final battle. "Apocalypse" is also a great word. It means literally "the lifting of the veil" or removing the covering, so you can see what is underneath. True story: I was once on vacation in Greece, and saw a strip club called Apocalypse. Based on the signage, they meant that in the sense of revealing hidden pleasures rather than some final battle, but I could also see some ways that visiting that club could lead to a nasty showdown.

personjerry 4y ago

My understanding is that this kind of assimilation of religion is known as "syncreticism" (which I learned from Crusader Kings) and happens often in history, for example Christianity adopting aspects of pagan religions (i.e. Thursday = Thor's Day) or when the Greeks ruled Egypt and invented interpretations of the Egyptian gods in the form of their own (Ptolemy's Egypt, which I learned about from Assassin's Creed)

thaumasiotes 4y ago
> for example Christianity adopting aspects of pagan religions (i.e. Thursday = Thor's Day) Is this something that ever happened? There are many documented cases of Christians railing against the names of the days of the week. They just didn't have the power to change them. When Christians did get to name the days of the week, in China, they named them "one", "two", "three", "four", "five", "six", and "day of worship".
- codeflo 4y ago
  Weren’t both Easter and Christmas non-Christian holidays originally?
  - gumby 4y ago
    Yes, most religions have a midwinter festival of rebirth (e.g. Sol Invictus -- the sun gets weak but is reborn) and a spring fertility festival. I find it odd that the Christians reversed them though: easter is a death/rebirth festival (hence the bunnies, chicks, lambs etc -- people want their fertility symbols at that time) which would make more sense in the midwinter and their god's birth festival is in the middle of winter for some reason.
    - rsynnott 4y ago
      In early Christianity, Easter was _by far_ the more significant holiday (Christians didn't even celebrate Christmas until a few centuries AD) so Christmas probably got whatever slot was left. Interestingly, in Islam, Jesus is usually considered to have been born in the Spring or Summer.

hashin 4y ago

This is true for Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism or any other religion that has happened to be caught in the political machinations of the enterprising state. I am reminded of St. Brigit [1], who was a Celtic goddess who was co-opted by the Catholic Church. Her pastoral associations have stayed intact, with the cultural 'need' for the deity protected, the co-opting makes a lot more sense. Mughal Emperor Akbar's effort to synthesise Islam, Hinduism and other Indic beliefs to great Din-i-Ilahi [2] is yet another prominent example of hegemonic powers using their social clout to increase soft power by co-opting the beliefs of the locals. The Millet system of Ottoman Empire [3], was geared towards 'respecting' local customs, personal law and protecting local systems of authority in lieu of their support to the Ottoman yoke. This was later adopted by the British in India and their other colonies, where they went to great lengths to establish Madrasas (Islamic education centres) [4] and Sanskrit colleges [5] to further this. [1] https://www.britannica.com/topic/Brigit https://www.britannica.com/topic/Brigit [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Din-i_Ilahi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Din-i_Ilahi [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millet_(Ottoman_Empire) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millet_(Ottoman_Empire) [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliah_University https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliah_University [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Hastings#Governor-General https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Hastings#Governor-Gener...

bashmelek 4y ago

I realize I’m in the minority here but as a Christian (Catholic) I’d like to draw a distinction between folk customs and the actual religion. For example, with Easter, if we are to believe the Venerable Bede, the word comes from Eostre, an Anglo-Saxon celebration and goddess. Many customs we associate with the holiday also come from them. But to say Easter the holiday comes from Eostre and is just Christian syncretism is highly Anglo centric. The celebration of the resurrection in Christianity is called Pascha and similar names in other languages, clearly associating itself with Passover just as the story of the Passion does. Likewise other cases, such as with various saints, often it is not that local gods were changed to be saints and kept as such, but the folk practice was redirected towards something more suitable for Christianity. Sometimes this did result in a lot of old folklore sticking around. I know this might sound 90 percent the same to many, but the 10 percent I would like to be clear on.

nerdponx 4y ago
In my understanding of ancient society, there was much less of a distinction between "religion" and "folk custom" than we have today.
- Bayart 4y ago
  Depends on what you call "ancient society", if there's such a thing. There were highly organised forms of religion in Rome or Egypt, with clear boundaries as to what was part of the state religion and what wasn't.