9 ms·

WebVM: WASM virtual machine in browser with networking via Tailscale

226 points by xrd 4y ago

convolvatron 4y ago
so we can get back to where we started by putting another layer on top. its unfortunate one has to result to this, but unfettered access is a lot more palatable on a private network
williamstein 4y ago
This is amazing. I think the virtualization engine CheerpX is closed source (https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/qv75q3/cheerpx_using_webassembly_to_run_any_programming/hkvv2w9/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3 https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/qv75q3/cheerpx...)
dismalpedigree 4y ago
I can’t help but think of Ian Malcolm. “ so preoccupied with whether they could, they didn't stop to think if they should”
- keeganpoppen 4y ago
  well, "nature always finds a way", as they say...
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
chologrande 4y ago
Projects like this are cool, but I can't help but wonder why? What problem is this, or any WASM, solving? Why do we need a VM in the browser?
- woojoo666 4y ago
  I think it's because people want to code in other languages besides javascript
- VikingCoder 4y ago
  What if the only thing you have access to is a browser, but you'd like to explore Clang, networking, etc? This turns a lock-down old Chromebook into a box you can learn to develop on.
  - chologrande 4y ago
    Interesting thought, but realistically what need is that serving besides curiosity? Even chromebooks have real linux underneath, the scenario you're describing is so niche it's hard to imagine. IMO it makes much more sense to use free tier on a cloud provider
    - VikingCoder 4y ago
      Not all Chromebooks do. Because their processor doesn't support it. Think about education Chromebooks that get locked down, too.
    - callahad 4y ago
      Moving emulators and virtual machines to the Web can be handy for software preservation. The Internet Archive has a massive collection of games and applications that you can run right now, on any device with a browser, thanks to this kind of tech.
  - starwatch 4y ago
    Also (speaking from 1st hand experience) some big companies issue laptops that are extremely locked down - with IT needed to install any software and only after it's been vetted. This gives a bit more liberty without crossing any of the security boundaries.
- colinsane 4y ago
  a “cross-platform” assembly format could, in time, make introducing new hardware architectures a bit easier. for example, these guys link to a discord channel to chat about their work, but i can’t join it easily because even though Discord ships a Linux client, they only ship it for x86 and not arm. further down the road, i’d like to try some RISC-V devices: that’ll be that same experience times ten. a portable assembly format has the chance to overcome this.
  - csande17 4y ago
    Isn't Discord's desktop client just an Electron wrapper around their website? It seems like there might be an easier way to get that running on other platforms.
    - nyanpasu64 4y ago
      If I wanted the full-fat Discord app (rather than a browser website or PWA, or a third-party client Discord will ban you over), I'd look into https://github.com/SpacingBat3/WebCord https://github.com/SpacingBat3/WebCord (which I think isn't detected and banned, but I cannot guarantee this or that they won't rewrite Discord to the point you can get banned for using it).
      - intelVISA 4y ago
        They also ban for blocking the /api/science/ data mining endpoint.
        nyanpasu64 4y ago
        Do you have any cases of people getting banned over it? It would be scary, uBlock Origin blocks /api/*/science and it would be terrifying if running an adblocker could get you banned from Discord.
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    Where have I heard this before? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNCOL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNCOL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Architecture_Neutral_Distribution_Format https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Architecture_Neutral_Distribut... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-code_machine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-code_machine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_i#TIMI https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_i#TIMI Not bothering to list all of them since 1958, WebAssembly is only the latest go at it.
- MoscMob 4y ago
  It's not that we need a VM in the browser, but we just need a VM that's sandboxed in terms of security. Other than JavaScript, what other way can you send arbitrary code to a device and expect it to run there? WASM is the only other option.
  - eisbaw 4y ago
    Don't buy it. A sandbox is a sandbox. Yes, javascript runs in a sandbox, but other technologies exist beyond javascript-in-a-sandbox. This is just really inefficient: VM in WASM in javascript in a sandbox in a browser, is insane and will forever be slow due to complexity. Fun for the lulz, but for the planet's sake I hope this doesn't get adopted.
    - titzer 4y ago
      Wasm is not implemented "in JavaScript", rather JS engines reuse important parts of their compilation pipeline to generate good code for Wasm.
riddleronroof 4y ago
Nice work with go. There is this for python in webassembly as well : https://pyodide.org/en/stable/index.html https://pyodide.org/en/stable/index.html
VikingCoder 4y ago
WASM, yes. Tailscale, yes. In the browser, sure, I'll take it. But what I really want is a capability-based WASM sandbox runtime (like wasmtime or workerd from Cloudflare) that provides an API that lists people that it can send messages to (through Tailscale.) I configure the runtime with my contacts, and say which apps can communicate with which people. And then a Dynamic DNS-like system for me to have an identity key, and look up the servers to find them. In case my contacts need to migrate to a new server. Maybe Tailscale already does this? The runtime keeps the apps updated (like Sandstorm.io).
- MuffinFlavored 4y ago
  why do you want this?
  - VikingCoder 4y ago
    I'm supremely impressed by Sandstorm.io, but I think it was designed kind of like an old BBS. One server, letting users come to it. What I'm describing, I think could be the basis for federated services. I imagine implementing RSS feeds and RSS Aggregators on top of a system like this. And lots of other services, too. I like the idea of it being capability based and sandboxed, because then I can feel safe running a service you wrote on my machine. And I like the idea of all of the networking being in the framework, rather than being implemented in each app. Just like Sandstorm.io takes a lot of the problems of sharing out of each app. The way this article ended up with WASM + Tailscale in the browser seems like a great way for a client to talk to a server based on WASM + Tailscale, like I want. So then my phone can connect to my home PC, running these federated services. I can picture implementing Google Photos on top of that. With sharing, too.
- infogulch 4y ago
  Maybe it would be nice if tailscale could "peer" with other whitelisted networks that agree and share selected services/endpoints between peers. Given this plus a namespace system (DNS?) you'd be pretty close to a usable, secure, decentralized, p2p mesh network. Edit: oh it's already a thing now? https://tailscale.com/kb/1084/sharing/ https://tailscale.com/kb/1084/sharing/
TechTechTech 4y ago
Makes me think of the excellent JSLinux by Bellard, https://bellard.org/jslinux/ https://bellard.org/jslinux/. Runs Linux / Windows 2000 in the browser with internet and file storage. Or another one which can boot a custom iso you provide, http://copy.sh/v86/ http://copy.sh/v86/
anderspitman 4y ago
This is quite impressive. I've never heard of WebVM/CheerpX before. I wonder how it compares to v86[0]. [0]: https://github.com/copy/v86 https://github.com/copy/v86
- apignotti 4y ago
  Hi, lead developer of CheerpX here. The main difference is about the level of performance we can reach thanks to our sophisticated JIT engine. Feel free to try running a payload yourself in v86 vs WebVM to see the difference. My latest talk on the topic is available here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rI7opIKW_z4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rI7opIKW_z4
  - garaetjjte 4y ago
    That was underwhelming, not much really said about the JIT other than "we do DCE".
neophyt3 4y ago
noob here.. how does wasm creates socket connections, isnt wasm handles cpu only operations
- apignotti 4y ago
  Wasm cannot indeed do much beside manipulating it's own memory and pure computation. Anything interesting happens via "imports", which are arbitrary functions implemented in JavaScript. The networking capabilities are implemented via a JS API (itself, compiled from Go to WebAssembly/JavaScript). This Go library connects to Tailscale DERPs via WebSockets to provide network access to the Tailscale network of each user. The broader internet can then be also accessed if an exit node is configured.
m00dy 4y ago
So to speak, webvm will have at most 4gb address space and that’s bad :)
- teaearlgraycold 4y ago
  We’re bringing RAM bank swapping back!
  - jeffreygoesto 4y ago
    Just open another browser tab?
MoscMob 4y ago
I'm waiting for someone to comment that because some programmer was lazy enough to use Go instead of C or C++, Tailscale module takes 16 MB, when the entire CheerpX VM was 6 MB. Just the stack is almost twice as big as the entire VM. Why is it written in GO when it could have been written in C? Lazy programmers.
- techpro864 4y ago
  it was compressed to 3.5 mb
- bheadmaster 4y ago
  Why would it be written in C when it could be written in assembly? Lazy programmers. This used to be a serious argument once, by the way.
  - danielheath 4y ago
    "Structured programming" (AKA the 'for' loop, 'if' statements) had early adopters, and serious arguments over their wasteful inefficiency took place at industry events.
  - infinite8s 4y ago
    You should read what John von Neumann said about assemblers...
HHC-Hunter 4y ago
Okay, this is taking computers too far.
- naikrovek 4y ago
  I say this doesn't go too far enough!
apignotti 4y ago
Direct link to the live version: https://webvm.io https://webvm.io Support/Discussion: https://discord.leaningtech.com https://discord.leaningtech.com Lead dev of CheerpX/WebVM here. Happy to answer questions.
- ddalex 4y ago
  Very interesting demo; a couple of q's: how is it qualitatively different from Fabrice Bellard's JSLinux, apart from the speedup? and what is the use case?
  - apignotti 4y ago
    I would argue that the speedup is critical for being practically useful. In terms of use cases: education, testing, documentation, distribution of applications, safe execution of legacy applications... and there are surely many others
stuntkite 4y ago
There is a lot of weird things I'm gonna do with this. 2023 is going to be a very weird year.
blahgeek 4y ago
IIRC Tailscale tries to keep their cost at minimum with high NAT traversal success rate so that DERP servers are rarely required. But this approach would always require using DERP servers which would increase tailscale’s bandwidth cost a lot if widely used. I wonder how Tailscale think about this
- techpro864 4y ago
  Tailscale is currently building native wasm support into their product. https://github.com/tailscale/tailscale/commit/6f5096fa61f36e20db84fa7c9b8806016393778f https://github.com/tailscale/tailscale/commit/6f5096fa61f36e...
BrainVirus 4y ago
We keep seeing more and more abstractions, but unfortunately they are the wrong abstractions. We need working process isolation, not endless VMs inside other VMs. We need a logical layer on top of TCP/IP, not crazy complicated VPN schemes. Etc. This is completely obvious to some people, and seems completely incomprehensible to others. Unfortunately, the companies with resources are mostly staffed with the latter.
- d4mi3n 4y ago
  Mind expanding on this? Why are better protocols incomprehensible? I find it hard to believe big orgs like Cloudflare, Google, etc. wouldn't be very interested in abstractions that save them or make them money, but I've been surprised before.
  - pmarreck 4y ago
    The problem is not that a superior abstraction exists that you can make money from, the problem is that you have to hire people who work well with that abstraction, and that is usually the impediment. For example, I bet NixOS would alleviate a lot of pain with development and deployment, but the learning curve is steep, poorly documented, and still in need of work, and the community is just not very big yet.

226 points by xrd 4y ago

so we can get back to where we started by putting another layer on top. its unfortunate one has to result to this, but unfettered access is a lot more palatable on a private network

williamstein 4y ago

This is amazing. I think the virtualization engine CheerpX is closed source (https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/qv75q3/cheerpx_using_webassembly_to_run_any_programming/hkvv2w9/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3 https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/qv75q3/cheerpx...)

dismalpedigree 4y ago

I can’t help but think of Ian Malcolm. “ so preoccupied with whether they could, they didn't stop to think if they should”

keeganpoppen 4y ago
well, "nature always finds a way", as they say...

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

chologrande 4y ago

Projects like this are cool, but I can't help but wonder why? What problem is this, or any WASM, solving? Why do we need a VM in the browser?

woojoo666 4y ago
I think it's because people want to code in other languages besides javascript
VikingCoder 4y ago
What if the only thing you have access to is a browser, but you'd like to explore Clang, networking, etc? This turns a lock-down old Chromebook into a box you can learn to develop on.
- chologrande 4y ago
  Interesting thought, but realistically what need is that serving besides curiosity? Even chromebooks have real linux underneath, the scenario you're describing is so niche it's hard to imagine. IMO it makes much more sense to use free tier on a cloud provider
  - VikingCoder 4y ago
    Not all Chromebooks do. Because their processor doesn't support it. Think about education Chromebooks that get locked down, too.
  - callahad 4y ago
    Moving emulators and virtual machines to the Web can be handy for software preservation. The Internet Archive has a massive collection of games and applications that you can run right now, on any device with a browser, thanks to this kind of tech.
- starwatch 4y ago
  Also (speaking from 1st hand experience) some big companies issue laptops that are extremely locked down - with IT needed to install any software and only after it's been vetted. This gives a bit more liberty without crossing any of the security boundaries.
colinsane 4y ago
a “cross-platform” assembly format could, in time, make introducing new hardware architectures a bit easier. for example, these guys link to a discord channel to chat about their work, but i can’t join it easily because even though Discord ships a Linux client, they only ship it for x86 and not arm. further down the road, i’d like to try some RISC-V devices: that’ll be that same experience times ten. a portable assembly format has the chance to overcome this.
- csande17 4y ago
  Isn't Discord's desktop client just an Electron wrapper around their website? It seems like there might be an easier way to get that running on other platforms.
  - nyanpasu64 4y ago
    If I wanted the full-fat Discord app (rather than a browser website or PWA, or a third-party client Discord will ban you over), I'd look into https://github.com/SpacingBat3/WebCord https://github.com/SpacingBat3/WebCord (which I think isn't detected and banned, but I cannot guarantee this or that they won't rewrite Discord to the point you can get banned for using it).
    - intelVISA 4y ago
      They also ban for blocking the /api/science/ data mining endpoint.
      - nyanpasu64 4y ago
        Do you have any cases of people getting banned over it? It would be scary, uBlock Origin blocks /api/*/science and it would be terrifying if running an adblocker could get you banned from Discord.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  Where have I heard this before? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNCOL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNCOL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Architecture_Neutral_Distribution_Format https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Architecture_Neutral_Distribut... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-code_machine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-code_machine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_i#TIMI https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_i#TIMI Not bothering to list all of them since 1958, WebAssembly is only the latest go at it.
MoscMob 4y ago
It's not that we need a VM in the browser, but we just need a VM that's sandboxed in terms of security. Other than JavaScript, what other way can you send arbitrary code to a device and expect it to run there? WASM is the only other option.
- eisbaw 4y ago
  Don't buy it. A sandbox is a sandbox. Yes, javascript runs in a sandbox, but other technologies exist beyond javascript-in-a-sandbox. This is just really inefficient: VM in WASM in javascript in a sandbox in a browser, is insane and will forever be slow due to complexity. Fun for the lulz, but for the planet's sake I hope this doesn't get adopted.
  - titzer 4y ago
    Wasm is not implemented "in JavaScript", rather JS engines reuse important parts of their compilation pipeline to generate good code for Wasm.

riddleronroof 4y ago

Nice work with go. There is this for python in webassembly as well : https://pyodide.org/en/stable/index.html https://pyodide.org/en/stable/index.html

VikingCoder 4y ago

WASM, yes. Tailscale, yes. In the browser, sure, I'll take it. But what I really want is a capability-based WASM sandbox runtime (like wasmtime or workerd from Cloudflare) that provides an API that lists people that it can send messages to (through Tailscale.) I configure the runtime with my contacts, and say which apps can communicate with which people. And then a Dynamic DNS-like system for me to have an identity key, and look up the servers to find them. In case my contacts need to migrate to a new server. Maybe Tailscale already does this? The runtime keeps the apps updated (like Sandstorm.io).

MuffinFlavored 4y ago
why do you want this?
- VikingCoder 4y ago
  I'm supremely impressed by Sandstorm.io, but I think it was designed kind of like an old BBS. One server, letting users come to it. What I'm describing, I think could be the basis for federated services. I imagine implementing RSS feeds and RSS Aggregators on top of a system like this. And lots of other services, too. I like the idea of it being capability based and sandboxed, because then I can feel safe running a service you wrote on my machine. And I like the idea of all of the networking being in the framework, rather than being implemented in each app. Just like Sandstorm.io takes a lot of the problems of sharing out of each app. The way this article ended up with WASM + Tailscale in the browser seems like a great way for a client to talk to a server based on WASM + Tailscale, like I want. So then my phone can connect to my home PC, running these federated services. I can picture implementing Google Photos on top of that. With sharing, too.
infogulch 4y ago
Maybe it would be nice if tailscale could "peer" with other whitelisted networks that agree and share selected services/endpoints between peers. Given this plus a namespace system (DNS?) you'd be pretty close to a usable, secure, decentralized, p2p mesh network. Edit: oh it's already a thing now? https://tailscale.com/kb/1084/sharing/ https://tailscale.com/kb/1084/sharing/

TechTechTech 4y ago

Makes me think of the excellent JSLinux by Bellard, https://bellard.org/jslinux/ https://bellard.org/jslinux/. Runs Linux / Windows 2000 in the browser with internet and file storage. Or another one which can boot a custom iso you provide, http://copy.sh/v86/ http://copy.sh/v86/

anderspitman 4y ago

This is quite impressive. I've never heard of WebVM/CheerpX before. I wonder how it compares to v86[0]. [0]: https://github.com/copy/v86 https://github.com/copy/v86

apignotti 4y ago
Hi, lead developer of CheerpX here. The main difference is about the level of performance we can reach thanks to our sophisticated JIT engine. Feel free to try running a payload yourself in v86 vs WebVM to see the difference. My latest talk on the topic is available here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rI7opIKW_z4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rI7opIKW_z4
- garaetjjte 4y ago
  That was underwhelming, not much really said about the JIT other than "we do DCE".

neophyt3 4y ago

noob here.. how does wasm creates socket connections, isnt wasm handles cpu only operations

apignotti 4y ago
Wasm cannot indeed do much beside manipulating it's own memory and pure computation. Anything interesting happens via "imports", which are arbitrary functions implemented in JavaScript. The networking capabilities are implemented via a JS API (itself, compiled from Go to WebAssembly/JavaScript). This Go library connects to Tailscale DERPs via WebSockets to provide network access to the Tailscale network of each user. The broader internet can then be also accessed if an exit node is configured.

m00dy 4y ago

So to speak, webvm will have at most 4gb address space and that’s bad :)

teaearlgraycold 4y ago
We’re bringing RAM bank swapping back!
- jeffreygoesto 4y ago
  Just open another browser tab?

MoscMob 4y ago

I'm waiting for someone to comment that because some programmer was lazy enough to use Go instead of C or C++, Tailscale module takes 16 MB, when the entire CheerpX VM was 6 MB. Just the stack is almost twice as big as the entire VM. Why is it written in GO when it could have been written in C? Lazy programmers.

techpro864 4y ago
it was compressed to 3.5 mb
bheadmaster 4y ago
Why would it be written in C when it could be written in assembly? Lazy programmers. This used to be a serious argument once, by the way.
- danielheath 4y ago
  "Structured programming" (AKA the 'for' loop, 'if' statements) had early adopters, and serious arguments over their wasteful inefficiency took place at industry events.
- infinite8s 4y ago
  You should read what John von Neumann said about assemblers...

HHC-Hunter 4y ago

Okay, this is taking computers too far.

naikrovek 4y ago
I say this doesn't go too far enough!

apignotti 4y ago

Direct link to the live version: https://webvm.io https://webvm.io Support/Discussion: https://discord.leaningtech.com https://discord.leaningtech.com Lead dev of CheerpX/WebVM here. Happy to answer questions.

ddalex 4y ago
Very interesting demo; a couple of q's: how is it qualitatively different from Fabrice Bellard's JSLinux, apart from the speedup? and what is the use case?
- apignotti 4y ago
  I would argue that the speedup is critical for being practically useful. In terms of use cases: education, testing, documentation, distribution of applications, safe execution of legacy applications... and there are surely many others

stuntkite 4y ago

There is a lot of weird things I'm gonna do with this. 2023 is going to be a very weird year.

blahgeek 4y ago

IIRC Tailscale tries to keep their cost at minimum with high NAT traversal success rate so that DERP servers are rarely required. But this approach would always require using DERP servers which would increase tailscale’s bandwidth cost a lot if widely used. I wonder how Tailscale think about this

techpro864 4y ago
Tailscale is currently building native wasm support into their product. https://github.com/tailscale/tailscale/commit/6f5096fa61f36e20db84fa7c9b8806016393778f https://github.com/tailscale/tailscale/commit/6f5096fa61f36e...

BrainVirus 4y ago

We keep seeing more and more abstractions, but unfortunately they are the wrong abstractions. We need working process isolation, not endless VMs inside other VMs. We need a logical layer on top of TCP/IP, not crazy complicated VPN schemes. Etc. This is completely obvious to some people, and seems completely incomprehensible to others. Unfortunately, the companies with resources are mostly staffed with the latter.

d4mi3n 4y ago
Mind expanding on this? Why are better protocols incomprehensible? I find it hard to believe big orgs like Cloudflare, Google, etc. wouldn't be very interested in abstractions that save them or make them money, but I've been surprised before.
- pmarreck 4y ago
  The problem is not that a superior abstraction exists that you can make money from, the problem is that you have to hire people who work well with that abstraction, and that is usually the impediment. For example, I bet NixOS would alleviate a lot of pain with development and deployment, but the learning curve is steep, poorly documented, and still in need of work, and the community is just not very big yet.