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I have a 2020 Honda Civic sans ultrasonic sensors but with a front camera for collision avoidance, and I can count on two hands the number of phantom breaking e

I have a 2020 Honda Civic sans ultrasonic sensors but with a front camera for collision avoidance, and I can count on two hands the number of phantom breaking events I've had in two years. All it takes is a little rain and the sun at the right angle for the system to be fooled into thinking a wall lies dead ahead. I consider myself lucky that each time there was no one behind me. While the car gives me the option to turn of the feature, I leave it on because if I get into an accident with it off I am sure the insurance companies would have more leverage to deny my claims and find me at fault.

jeffbee 4y ago
Honda's collision mitigation system uses a millimeter-wave radar mounted in the front bumper on the driver's side. https://www.hondapartsnow.com/genuine/honda~0~36803-tbe-a04.html https://www.hondapartsnow.com/genuine/honda~0~36803-tbe-a04....
- threeseed 4y ago
  According to owner's guide [1] it uses both a front camera and radar. I can definitely imagine it relying on the camera for medium to long range collision avoidance. [1] https://owners.honda.com/utility/download?path=/static/pdfs/2021/Civic%20Sedan/2021_Civic_4D_Honda_Sensing.pdf https://owners.honda.com/utility/download?path=/static/pdfs/...
AtomicOrbital 4y ago
The car no doubt first confirms nobody is tailgating before such an abrupt action
- ntr-- 4y ago
  With what? a rear facing camera that runs the same object detection software?
  - mc32 4y ago
    Likely it would not be affected by the same light artifacts give that it would not be pointing in the same direction.
- aetherson 4y ago
  I have some doubt.
- dtgriscom 4y ago
  /s?
- pintxo 4y ago
  So that you don’t brake in front of a wall if there is another care behind you? Not sure this is a smart move.
iosjunkie 4y ago
Someone close to me was in an accident that could have been avoided with sensors other than a camera. The camera only collision mitigation system was blinded by direct sunlight complicated by glare off of fresh snow. Zero indication the system was compromised until it failed to provide any warning or active braking. Vowed to never own a car with only camera based collision mitigation again.
- NullPrefix 4y ago
  What was the driver doing?
  - cpsns 4y ago
    That’s not really relevant, safety systems should be expected to work reliably, or report to the driver when they can’t (something my car does if covered in snow).
- gzer0 4y ago
  When radar and vision disagree, which one do you believe? Vision has much more precision, so better to double down on vision than do sensor fusion.
  - parker_mountain 4y ago
    In the event of a blinded vision system, such as sun glare, the vision system should be able to recognize its reduced capacity. That involves warning the driver and relying more heavily on radar/sensor fusion.
  - Volundr 4y ago
    The solution two information from two sources disagreeing is rarely to just throw away half of your data.
  - AlotOfReading 4y ago
    There's a huge amount of literature on how to do sensor fusion in the presence of misbehaving or disagreeing sensors. Moreover, production vehicles don't get entire classes of redundant sensors when the engineers think they can do without. The cost optimization and haggling that goes into production vehicles is insane.
parker_mountain 4y ago
I have a 2020 BMW, with the same features. I have never had an issue in over 30,000 miles of driving. My previous generation BMW, also similarly equipped, did not have these issues. It did trigger the rear collision alert a handful of times, although all that does is tighten the seatbells and beep (i think). So, these features can work reliably, and I don't think using a poor implementation is useful in this conversation. The reality is that tesla has removed sensors from their playbook, which can only decrease the information the car has to work with.
- delta_p_delta_x 4y ago
  > 2020 BMW I generally find that the luxury European makes (BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Audi, Porsche) have more well-put-together cars than Tesla does, despite all of Tesla's posturing about being a 'premium car company'. I heard it put quite succinctly: 'Tesla is a software company that decided to build cars'. Not to mention, it is an American software company that decided to build cars in the US, and the person I spoke to didn't have a very good opinion of American makes in general (I concur). Tesla was at the forefront of EV innovation about 5-7 years ago, but today, I'd much rather buy an EQE, an i4, or an e-tron (or if I can ever afford it, a Taycan Turbo S).
  - sshine 4y ago
    > I'd much rather buy an EQE, an i4, or an e-tron (or if I can ever afford it, a Taycan Turbo S). A comparison of what it would cost me locally to get these cars (base cost): Tesla model 3: From $55k, 455 km range Tesla model Y: From $58k, 488 km range BMW i4: From $65k, 470 km range Mercedes-Benz EQE: From $85k, 525 km range Audi e-tron: From $131k, 365 km range Porsche Taycan Turbo S: From $276k, 560 km range --- Of these, the e-tron is overpriced, even compared to non-electric Audis. I'd be happy to own any of these. But you're mentioning 18-38% more expensive cars (disregarding Taycan; Taycan should be compared to Tesla Roadster: $211k, 997 km range). The Tesla selling point for me is a highly competitive range and the most beautiful interior (subjective, but alternatively: most simple) at the lowest cost among these luxury electric cars. > Tesla is a software company that decided to build cars Companies that realise they're a software company when software is at their core have an edge. Insurance companies, for example, should be wise to do the same.
me_me_me 4y ago
Its all fun and games, until you start hitting corner cases.
frxx 4y ago
Are you perchance confusing ultrasonic sensors with front mounted radar? In general the collision avoidance systems use either camera or radar, or both. Some manufacturers are trying to add lidar into the mix these days. Ultrasonic sensors are in general just used for parking and don't last way further than maybe 2 meters. (Source: I work in this space.)

jeffbee 4y ago

Honda's collision mitigation system uses a millimeter-wave radar mounted in the front bumper on the driver's side. https://www.hondapartsnow.com/genuine/honda~0~36803-tbe-a04.html https://www.hondapartsnow.com/genuine/honda~0~36803-tbe-a04....

threeseed 4y ago
According to owner's guide [1] it uses both a front camera and radar. I can definitely imagine it relying on the camera for medium to long range collision avoidance. [1] https://owners.honda.com/utility/download?path=/static/pdfs/2021/Civic%20Sedan/2021_Civic_4D_Honda_Sensing.pdf https://owners.honda.com/utility/download?path=/static/pdfs/...

AtomicOrbital 4y ago

The car no doubt first confirms nobody is tailgating before such an abrupt action

ntr-- 4y ago
With what? a rear facing camera that runs the same object detection software?
- mc32 4y ago
  Likely it would not be affected by the same light artifacts give that it would not be pointing in the same direction.
aetherson 4y ago
I have some doubt.
dtgriscom 4y ago
/s?
pintxo 4y ago
So that you don’t brake in front of a wall if there is another care behind you? Not sure this is a smart move.

iosjunkie 4y ago

Someone close to me was in an accident that could have been avoided with sensors other than a camera. The camera only collision mitigation system was blinded by direct sunlight complicated by glare off of fresh snow. Zero indication the system was compromised until it failed to provide any warning or active braking. Vowed to never own a car with only camera based collision mitigation again.

NullPrefix 4y ago
What was the driver doing?
- cpsns 4y ago
  That’s not really relevant, safety systems should be expected to work reliably, or report to the driver when they can’t (something my car does if covered in snow).
gzer0 4y ago
When radar and vision disagree, which one do you believe? Vision has much more precision, so better to double down on vision than do sensor fusion.
- parker_mountain 4y ago
  In the event of a blinded vision system, such as sun glare, the vision system should be able to recognize its reduced capacity. That involves warning the driver and relying more heavily on radar/sensor fusion.
- Volundr 4y ago
  The solution two information from two sources disagreeing is rarely to just throw away half of your data.
- AlotOfReading 4y ago
  There's a huge amount of literature on how to do sensor fusion in the presence of misbehaving or disagreeing sensors. Moreover, production vehicles don't get entire classes of redundant sensors when the engineers think they can do without. The cost optimization and haggling that goes into production vehicles is insane.

parker_mountain 4y ago

I have a 2020 BMW, with the same features. I have never had an issue in over 30,000 miles of driving. My previous generation BMW, also similarly equipped, did not have these issues. It did trigger the rear collision alert a handful of times, although all that does is tighten the seatbells and beep (i think). So, these features can work reliably, and I don't think using a poor implementation is useful in this conversation. The reality is that tesla has removed sensors from their playbook, which can only decrease the information the car has to work with.

delta_p_delta_x 4y ago
> 2020 BMW I generally find that the luxury European makes (BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Audi, Porsche) have more well-put-together cars than Tesla does, despite all of Tesla's posturing about being a 'premium car company'. I heard it put quite succinctly: 'Tesla is a software company that decided to build cars'. Not to mention, it is an American software company that decided to build cars in the US, and the person I spoke to didn't have a very good opinion of American makes in general (I concur). Tesla was at the forefront of EV innovation about 5-7 years ago, but today, I'd much rather buy an EQE, an i4, or an e-tron (or if I can ever afford it, a Taycan Turbo S).
- sshine 4y ago
  > I'd much rather buy an EQE, an i4, or an e-tron (or if I can ever afford it, a Taycan Turbo S). A comparison of what it would cost me locally to get these cars (base cost): Tesla model 3: From $55k, 455 km range Tesla model Y: From $58k, 488 km range BMW i4: From $65k, 470 km range Mercedes-Benz EQE: From $85k, 525 km range Audi e-tron: From $131k, 365 km range Porsche Taycan Turbo S: From $276k, 560 km range --- Of these, the e-tron is overpriced, even compared to non-electric Audis. I'd be happy to own any of these. But you're mentioning 18-38% more expensive cars (disregarding Taycan; Taycan should be compared to Tesla Roadster: $211k, 997 km range). The Tesla selling point for me is a highly competitive range and the most beautiful interior (subjective, but alternatively: most simple) at the lowest cost among these luxury electric cars. > Tesla is a software company that decided to build cars Companies that realise they're a software company when software is at their core have an edge. Insurance companies, for example, should be wise to do the same.

me_me_me 4y ago

Its all fun and games, until you start hitting corner cases.

frxx 4y ago

Are you perchance confusing ultrasonic sensors with front mounted radar? In general the collision avoidance systems use either camera or radar, or both. Some manufacturers are trying to add lidar into the mix these days. Ultrasonic sensors are in general just used for parking and don't last way further than maybe 2 meters. (Source: I work in this space.)