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Thanks for explaining! The last time I was involved with job-title hierarchies (a long time ago), nobody was a programmer, everyone was an analyst. The people

Thanks for explaining! The last time I was involved with job-title hierarchies (a long time ago), nobody was a programmer, everyone was an analyst. The people who did telephone support were called support analysts. I graduated to senior sales support analyst (roughly, doing random free work for the prospect, to close a sale). We assumed we were superior to "engineers": they were the guys that swapped-out hard disks and cards, twiddled the fuses to do performance upgrades, and lifted heavy boxes. We were better-paid. I think of them in boiler-suits, but actually they wore business suits like me. I liked the engineers. [Edit: I guess maybe the difference might have been that we (analysts) had degrees, and they didn't - they got lots of training on the hardware. The attitude "we" had was obviously degree snobbery. I say "we", because the engineers were regarded rather as I would regard a gas-fitter, by just about everyone.]

pedrosorio 4y ago
> I guess maybe the difference might have been that we (analysts) had degrees, and they didn't Interesting nomenclature given that in many countries you can't even call yourself an engineer without an accredited degree and being licensed by the proper regulator.
- denton-scratch 4y ago
  Does that apply to "Software Engineers" in Silicon Valley?
  - nickm12 4y ago
    No. The US does not generally require "engineers" to be accredited and certified, but there are some exceptions, like particularly civil engineers.
opportune 4y ago
It is kind of the opposite now, at least in the US/SV. Programmers are “Software Engineers” and many programming-adjacent roles like support are given titles like “Product Support Engineer” Personally I think Software Engineer is a better descriptor of what we do than Programmer/Analyst, though of course not everybody with the title is actually engineering systems.
- denton-scratch 4y ago
  Well, I never pretended to be an engineer; if bridge-builders did engineering the way software is built, news about a new bridge collapses would become boring. I call myself a programmer, or sometimes a "software developer". But even the latter term is fishy, to me; it has connotations of "research and development", as if there's something blue-sky and innovative about building a commercial website. Incidentally, my dad counselled me to NOT go into programming as a trade[0]. I ignored his advice, and I did OK. [0] Yes, I consider myself a tradesman, not a "professional". Professions are trades that are policed by a professional body; there are professional bodies for programmers, but hardly any programmers belong to those bodies, and if you list your membership on your CV, it'll probably reduce your chance of getting an interview.

pedrosorio 4y ago

> I guess maybe the difference might have been that we (analysts) had degrees, and they didn't Interesting nomenclature given that in many countries you can't even call yourself an engineer without an accredited degree and being licensed by the proper regulator.

denton-scratch 4y ago
Does that apply to "Software Engineers" in Silicon Valley?
- nickm12 4y ago
  No. The US does not generally require "engineers" to be accredited and certified, but there are some exceptions, like particularly civil engineers.

opportune 4y ago

It is kind of the opposite now, at least in the US/SV. Programmers are “Software Engineers” and many programming-adjacent roles like support are given titles like “Product Support Engineer” Personally I think Software Engineer is a better descriptor of what we do than Programmer/Analyst, though of course not everybody with the title is actually engineering systems.

denton-scratch 4y ago
Well, I never pretended to be an engineer; if bridge-builders did engineering the way software is built, news about a new bridge collapses would become boring. I call myself a programmer, or sometimes a "software developer". But even the latter term is fishy, to me; it has connotations of "research and development", as if there's something blue-sky and innovative about building a commercial website. Incidentally, my dad counselled me to NOT go into programming as a trade[0]. I ignored his advice, and I did OK. [0] Yes, I consider myself a tradesman, not a "professional". Professions are trades that are policed by a professional body; there are professional bodies for programmers, but hardly any programmers belong to those bodies, and if you list your membership on your CV, it'll probably reduce your chance of getting an interview.