7 ms·

Why ? Do they teach that in school ? If not why it would be surprising to not know how it works ?

by xani_ 4y ago

jjk166 4y ago
It is surprising that it is not typically taught in schools. One would think an understanding of how our government works and the limits of its powers would be critical for a functional democracy, but 57% of Americans have never even read the constitution nonetheless had any formal education about the context and consequences of its clauses. Of course there will always be more things we want kids to learn than there is time to teach them, but I seriously question what was prioritized over civics.
- bombcar 4y ago
  It's understandable that studying the constitution could be useful, but arguably so would studying the NEC. In both cases it shouldn't be a requirement; we don't demand studying the NEC before using electricity. And even those with a very good understanding of the constitution and civics probably don't have a very good handling on the actualities of how everything works, unless perhaps they're a criminal lawyer.
  - tjohns 4y ago
    On the other hand, if you're going to actually do DIY work on your house's wiring, it would be prudent to at least have some familiarity with the NEC. Since we're in a democracy, every election involves everyday citizens adjusting the wiring of our government. Doubly so in states that allow voter-initiated statutes and constitutional amendments via referendum.
  - kragen 4y ago
    The official original US Constitution is written out on one largish page. The original text, plus footnotes, is 10 pages in https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CDOC-110hdoc50/pdf/CDOC-110hdoc50.pdf https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CDOC-110hdoc50/pdf/CDOC-.... On https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_United_States_of_America https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_United_St... it's, by my count, 4370 words. That's 12½ minutes of reading. The amendments are another 15 pages, which is mostly taken up by footnotes about which states ratified them when. On https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/United_States_Bill_of_Rights https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/United_States_Bill_of_Rights and https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Additional_amendments_to_the_United_States_Constitution https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Additional_amendments_to_the_... we have 809 and 2698 words respectively. That's another 10 minutes of reading. Also, most of that text is unchanged since 01789, and it hasn't changed at all since 01992, when one sentence was added. If you'd spent those 22½ minutes in 01992 you'd still be up to date. And it is in the public domain, so it is easy to obtain. NFPA's National Electrical Code (I assume that's the one you mean) is over 1000 pages, and a new version comes out each year.
    - jfengel 4y ago
      Because it's so short, it doesn't actually say very much. Nearly all of its application is a matter of interpretation spanning literally millions of pages.
      - bombcar 4y ago
        That’s the problem. Some parts read quite simply, others require decades of study (and even then the top legal minds in the US can disagree on what the word mean).
        kragen 4y ago
        Of course they do! The whole point of being a top legal mind is so that you can disagree convincingly about laws so that you can bring about the results you want.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - jjk166 4y ago
    If every november everyone in the community got together and rewired eachother's houses, I think it would be very wise to require the NEC be taught to all students. Of course most people are never going to be arguing cases before the supreme court or writing laws, and those would require far more expertise than anyone needs. At the same time, most people will never be mathematicians but we still have math classes. No one is becoming a master in a subject from primary education, but they should have some basic literacy in the subject and a foundation to build upon.
- Kamq 4y ago
  Schools are optimizing for standardized tests. There's no standardized tests on civics.
  - autoexec 4y ago
    Probably should be really. Kids should at least grow up knowing how things are supposed to work so they can fully appreciate how broken things are.
  - bzbarsky 4y ago
    There was such a standardized test when I was in high school, for what it's worth. And some states still have them, and some require a passing grade on them to graduate from high school.
  - rswail 4y ago
    What are the tests that people have to take to gain US citizenship? While people born in the US automatically have citizenship, my personal belief is that people should have to pass the citizenship tests to get the right to vote. btw, I'm in Australia, and our voting is compulsory (or at least being enrolled and being crossed off as submitting a ballot paper, the vote itself is secret). I think if we're going to set tests for citizenship for foreigners before they're allowed to become citizens, why shouldn't the same tests apply to locals?
    - Kamq 4y ago
      > What are the tests that people have to take to gain US citizenship? I mean, you're not wrong, but that's not what the majority of schools' funding is staked upon.
- watwut 4y ago
  Constitution is fairly removed from practice of criminal law. It is theory that has literally hundreds or interpretations slapped on it.

Why ? Do they teach that in school ? If not why it would be surprising to not know how it works ?

by xani_ 4y ago

Why ? Do they teach that in school ? If not why it would be surprising to not know how it works ?

It is surprising that it is not typically taught in schools. One would think an understanding of how our government works and the limits of its powers would be critical for a functional democracy, but 57% of Americans have never even read the constitution nonetheless had any formal education about the context and consequences of its clauses. Of course there will always be more things we want kids to learn than there is time to teach them, but I seriously question what was prioritized over civics.

bombcar 4y ago
It's understandable that studying the constitution could be useful, but arguably so would studying the NEC. In both cases it shouldn't be a requirement; we don't demand studying the NEC before using electricity. And even those with a very good understanding of the constitution and civics probably don't have a very good handling on the actualities of how everything works, unless perhaps they're a criminal lawyer.
- tjohns 4y ago
  On the other hand, if you're going to actually do DIY work on your house's wiring, it would be prudent to at least have some familiarity with the NEC. Since we're in a democracy, every election involves everyday citizens adjusting the wiring of our government. Doubly so in states that allow voter-initiated statutes and constitutional amendments via referendum.
- kragen 4y ago
  The official original US Constitution is written out on one largish page. The original text, plus footnotes, is 10 pages in https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CDOC-110hdoc50/pdf/CDOC-110hdoc50.pdf https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CDOC-110hdoc50/pdf/CDOC-.... On https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_United_States_of_America https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_United_St... it's, by my count, 4370 words. That's 12½ minutes of reading. The amendments are another 15 pages, which is mostly taken up by footnotes about which states ratified them when. On https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/United_States_Bill_of_Rights https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/United_States_Bill_of_Rights and https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Additional_amendments_to_the_United_States_Constitution https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Additional_amendments_to_the_... we have 809 and 2698 words respectively. That's another 10 minutes of reading. Also, most of that text is unchanged since 01789, and it hasn't changed at all since 01992, when one sentence was added. If you'd spent those 22½ minutes in 01992 you'd still be up to date. And it is in the public domain, so it is easy to obtain. NFPA's National Electrical Code (I assume that's the one you mean) is over 1000 pages, and a new version comes out each year.
  - jfengel 4y ago
    Because it's so short, it doesn't actually say very much. Nearly all of its application is a matter of interpretation spanning literally millions of pages.
    - bombcar 4y ago
      That’s the problem. Some parts read quite simply, others require decades of study (and even then the top legal minds in the US can disagree on what the word mean).
      - kragen 4y ago
        Of course they do! The whole point of being a top legal mind is so that you can disagree convincingly about laws so that you can bring about the results you want.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- jjk166 4y ago
  If every november everyone in the community got together and rewired eachother's houses, I think it would be very wise to require the NEC be taught to all students. Of course most people are never going to be arguing cases before the supreme court or writing laws, and those would require far more expertise than anyone needs. At the same time, most people will never be mathematicians but we still have math classes. No one is becoming a master in a subject from primary education, but they should have some basic literacy in the subject and a foundation to build upon.
Kamq 4y ago
Schools are optimizing for standardized tests. There's no standardized tests on civics.
- autoexec 4y ago
  Probably should be really. Kids should at least grow up knowing how things are supposed to work so they can fully appreciate how broken things are.
- bzbarsky 4y ago
  There was such a standardized test when I was in high school, for what it's worth. And some states still have them, and some require a passing grade on them to graduate from high school.
- rswail 4y ago
  What are the tests that people have to take to gain US citizenship? While people born in the US automatically have citizenship, my personal belief is that people should have to pass the citizenship tests to get the right to vote. btw, I'm in Australia, and our voting is compulsory (or at least being enrolled and being crossed off as submitting a ballot paper, the vote itself is secret). I think if we're going to set tests for citizenship for foreigners before they're allowed to become citizens, why shouldn't the same tests apply to locals?
  - Kamq 4y ago
    > What are the tests that people have to take to gain US citizenship? I mean, you're not wrong, but that's not what the majority of schools' funding is staked upon.
watwut 4y ago
Constitution is fairly removed from practice of criminal law. It is theory that has literally hundreds or interpretations slapped on it.