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Since the firing, I have been reading opinions here. I have collected a set of thoughts: There are two seeming possibilities : (1) The more probable one, wher

Since the firing, I have been reading opinions here. I have collected a set of thoughts: There are two seeming possibilities : (1) The more probable one, where students are resorting to cancel culture when they feel the outcomes are not to their desires. This is a harmful trend. The road only leads to diluted standards. Professional education isn't feel-happy. It sets you up to face real challenges. I can't expect my doctor to post a TikTok video canceling me if I complained the treatment wasn't working well. Edit: Professional education not being feel-happy is not about the stress but rigors compared to non-STEM streams. Edit 2: (Personal anecdote) My undergrad computer vision was taught by a Chinese American professor, who did a rather fine job at setting test & gradings. No one failed his course though the grades were distributed A through C. He was similarly "voted out" from teaching that course by the feedback system simply because the assigned readings were long, & had expository papers which some kids did not want to put efforts into. A few including me, benefitted greatly by the course though - and feel sorry this happened anyway. (2) There is a smaller chance the course is unimaginably hard compared to similar courses elsewhere. I don't know that very well. But I would give some benefit of doubt to the professor still, to know how to teach the fundamentals well. If the course is not geared towards med school entrances only, its not on the professor to keep the rigors. For example, a CS course for CS grad students should be expected to have considerable programming. It should not be crosslisted with Arts & Languages, who need computing credits. A different course better serves the purpose. Maybe the med school requisite course should have been different from the standard Organic Chemistry I. Treating degree as a commodity will lead to grade inflation & lot of people finding their degrees of less value. They will have the qualifications but not the deep skills & insights to solve the practical problems. And that makes the vicious cycle complete where we are skeptical of the costly education. College is necessary - but not grad school. Not always. And those who chose the second, should be prepared to endure some rigors of the learning path.

mikkergp 4y ago
> The road only leads to diluted standards This is not the only possibility. So much of the way we used to view education was top-down and memorization of facts. I don't think that a medical school education is that different from something like CS than the old guard would like you to believe. Can a Dr self-teach just like a CS engineer? Maybe not, but the ability to memorize organic chemistry facts is likely a much smaller part of being a doctor than ever before. We know the university system is a mess, we know the medical system is a mess, and yet we say any attempt to change it must be a lowering of standards. Something has to give. > Professional education isn't feel-happy. It sets you up to face real challenges This is horrifically untrue. I think people are really bad at understanding how to "impose productive stress" or whatever you want to call it on people. Nothing I've faced in my professional environment, talking to angry customers, Hours long product wide outages, coordinating 30 teams, troubleshooting complex systems was as artificially stressful as education. Maybe because in the real world for the most part your peers and bosses are on your side.
- srvmshr 4y ago
  My opinion was simply to state loosening the course to enable everyone to pass & get a minimum B+ for e.g, negates the purposes of grading. A lot of schools have different courses covering the same topics because the target audience is different. Organic Chemistry for grad school Chemistry needs a lot of rote. But thats not needed for med school. If the same course is used by both the audience, we can't blame the professor for keeping a higher bar. That's NYU course planners' responsibility TBH. And this is the example I was elucidating in (2) > This is horrifically untrue [...] Again, you're misunderstanding me. I am against people inducing work stress. But STEM does have higher rigors to clear than literature or fine arts. Grad school was a fast paced, and challenging experience. I enjoyed it. But I wouldn't say they were relaxing and feel good. Its not fair to pick that one sentence and quote me out of context. I am not talking of undergrad education which should be holistic & enable exposing students to a wide array of topics without risks of adverse outcomes by low grades. Grad school specialization is more geared to push you to the bleeding edge - and going there needs out of the ordinary efforts. If NYUs current course is not suited for med school but suitable for e.g chemical engineering or chemistry majors, NYU should be revisiting the course planning carefully
  - mikkergp 4y ago
    > Its not fair to pick that one sentence and quote me out of context Fair enough, I apologize.
mcguire 4y ago
Out of curiosity, have you run across any coverage of the story from any point of view other than Dr. Jones? Anything like, say, https://nyunews.com/opinion/2022/10/05/maitland-jones-nytimes-response/ https://nyunews.com/opinion/2022/10/05/maitland-jones-nytime... ? Anything about the spring 2022 class being experimental, with an increased workload? How about Dr. Jones receiving significantly worse evaluations than other instructors teaching the same class? For many years? ("Cancel culture" is pretty much a meaningless attack at this point.)
- srvmshr 4y ago
  My thoughts are based on what I have gleaned here. I was very upfront with that disclosure > Since the firing, I have been reading opinions here. I have collected a set of thoughts: > There is a smaller chance the course is unimaginably hard compared to similar courses elsewhere. I don't know that very well. Not specific to this instance, but students do voice their displeasure at course difficulty by semester-end feedback. And I have shared my own personal anecdote of ECE4584 at Virginia Tech. The challenge is finding how much of that complaint is legit vs. good old fashioned whining. Cancel culture used by students is not a meaningless attack on the discussion. Edit: I skimmed the article quickly and it seems it is vocally defensive of the students & their feelings, having a lot of he-say-she-say type of quotes. I am yet to see reference which solidly explains the viewpoint of other faculty members at what went wrong in this instance. We are no better than seeing the same side of the story. Also, It would be nice to not resort to veiled sarcasm. I am not defending Mr. Jones but pointing out the dynamics of an uncalibrated system which is to detriment of every stakeholder. Edit2: What I however learned in the follow up article on NYU magazine doesn't portray a rosy picture for any faculty member either: > “What happened to Maitland Jones is the thing that has made me the most frightened I have ever been as an NYU professor,” said Jacob Remes, a clinical associate professor at the Gallatin School of Individualized Study and an organizer with CFU-UAW Local 7902, the yet-unrecognized union of contracted faculty members at NYU. “What it tells me is, I can be fired. Not when my colleagues want to fire me, not even when my students want to fire me, but when a dean decides that I am more trouble than I am worth.”
  - mcguire 4y ago

mikkergp 4y ago

> The road only leads to diluted standards This is not the only possibility. So much of the way we used to view education was top-down and memorization of facts. I don't think that a medical school education is that different from something like CS than the old guard would like you to believe. Can a Dr self-teach just like a CS engineer? Maybe not, but the ability to memorize organic chemistry facts is likely a much smaller part of being a doctor than ever before. We know the university system is a mess, we know the medical system is a mess, and yet we say any attempt to change it must be a lowering of standards. Something has to give. > Professional education isn't feel-happy. It sets you up to face real challenges This is horrifically untrue. I think people are really bad at understanding how to "impose productive stress" or whatever you want to call it on people. Nothing I've faced in my professional environment, talking to angry customers, Hours long product wide outages, coordinating 30 teams, troubleshooting complex systems was as artificially stressful as education. Maybe because in the real world for the most part your peers and bosses are on your side.

srvmshr 4y ago
My opinion was simply to state loosening the course to enable everyone to pass & get a minimum B+ for e.g, negates the purposes of grading. A lot of schools have different courses covering the same topics because the target audience is different. Organic Chemistry for grad school Chemistry needs a lot of rote. But thats not needed for med school. If the same course is used by both the audience, we can't blame the professor for keeping a higher bar. That's NYU course planners' responsibility TBH. And this is the example I was elucidating in (2) > This is horrifically untrue [...] Again, you're misunderstanding me. I am against people inducing work stress. But STEM does have higher rigors to clear than literature or fine arts. Grad school was a fast paced, and challenging experience. I enjoyed it. But I wouldn't say they were relaxing and feel good. Its not fair to pick that one sentence and quote me out of context. I am not talking of undergrad education which should be holistic & enable exposing students to a wide array of topics without risks of adverse outcomes by low grades. Grad school specialization is more geared to push you to the bleeding edge - and going there needs out of the ordinary efforts. If NYUs current course is not suited for med school but suitable for e.g chemical engineering or chemistry majors, NYU should be revisiting the course planning carefully
- mikkergp 4y ago
  > Its not fair to pick that one sentence and quote me out of context Fair enough, I apologize.

mcguire 4y ago

Out of curiosity, have you run across any coverage of the story from any point of view other than Dr. Jones? Anything like, say, https://nyunews.com/opinion/2022/10/05/maitland-jones-nytimes-response/ https://nyunews.com/opinion/2022/10/05/maitland-jones-nytime... ? Anything about the spring 2022 class being experimental, with an increased workload? How about Dr. Jones receiving significantly worse evaluations than other instructors teaching the same class? For many years? ("Cancel culture" is pretty much a meaningless attack at this point.)

srvmshr 4y ago
My thoughts are based on what I have gleaned here. I was very upfront with that disclosure > Since the firing, I have been reading opinions here. I have collected a set of thoughts: > There is a smaller chance the course is unimaginably hard compared to similar courses elsewhere. I don't know that very well. Not specific to this instance, but students do voice their displeasure at course difficulty by semester-end feedback. And I have shared my own personal anecdote of ECE4584 at Virginia Tech. The challenge is finding how much of that complaint is legit vs. good old fashioned whining. Cancel culture used by students is not a meaningless attack on the discussion. Edit: I skimmed the article quickly and it seems it is vocally defensive of the students & their feelings, having a lot of he-say-she-say type of quotes. I am yet to see reference which solidly explains the viewpoint of other faculty members at what went wrong in this instance. We are no better than seeing the same side of the story. Also, It would be nice to not resort to veiled sarcasm. I am not defending Mr. Jones but pointing out the dynamics of an uncalibrated system which is to detriment of every stakeholder. Edit2: What I however learned in the follow up article on NYU magazine doesn't portray a rosy picture for any faculty member either: > “What happened to Maitland Jones is the thing that has made me the most frightened I have ever been as an NYU professor,” said Jacob Remes, a clinical associate professor at the Gallatin School of Individualized Study and an organizer with CFU-UAW Local 7902, the yet-unrecognized union of contracted faculty members at NYU. “What it tells me is, I can be fired. Not when my colleagues want to fire me, not even when my students want to fire me, but when a dean decides that I am more trouble than I am worth.”
- mcguire 4y ago