6 ms·

I would even say that for 99% of the existing websites a free oracle cloud instance with 4 cores and 24GB ram + cdn is more than enough.

by naiv 4y ago

jensneuse 4y ago
I agree. It's probably good enough for a lot of use cases.
jl6 4y ago
Agree, except that amount of RAM ain’t free.
- yusefnapora 4y ago
  The free x86 VMs are capped at 1GB each, but the ARM ones go up to 24GB. > Arm-based Ampere A1 cores and 24 GB of memory usable as 1 VM or up to 4 VMs with 3,000 OCPU hours and 18,000 GB hours per month https://www.oracle.com/cloud/free/#always-free https://www.oracle.com/cloud/free/#always-free
qudat 4y ago
We use the cloud free tier for https://prose.sh https://prose.sh We aren’t even close to hitting any bottlenecks at this point
systemvoltage 4y ago
Here is my golden setup: Cloudflare Tunnels + All ports closed (except ssh) + bare metal server. You can scale to the moon with like a million active users on a couple of 16 core servers (1 primary, 1 hot failover). You don't need AWS. You don't need Terraform. You don't need kubernetes. Hell, you don't need docker because you know apriori what the deployment environment is. Just run systemd services. 99% of the startsup will never need anything more. They'll fail before that. The ones that succeed have a good problem on hand to actually Scale™. What we're seeing is premature-optimi...errr scaling. Edit more context: For Postgres, setup streaming replication between postgres and hot standby. You need a remote server somewhere to check health of your primary and run promote to your hot standby if it fails. It is not that difficult. Have cron jobs to back up your database with pgdumpall in addition somewhere on Backblaze or S3. Use your hot standby to run Grafana/Prometheus/Loki stack. For extra safety, run both servers on ZFS raid (mirror or raidz2) on nvme drives. You'll get like 100k IOPS which would be 300x of base RDS instance on AWS. Ridiculous savings and performance would be just astonishing. Run your app to call postgres on localhost, it will be the fastest web experience your customers will ever experience, on edge or not.
- arcanemachiner 4y ago
  Saving this
- luckylion 4y ago
  You still pay the latency cost, even though your data travels mostly inside CF's network. It's very noticeable when you're far away from the server, which you will be for most of the world if you sell to everyone. Perfectly fine if e.g. you're only targeting anyone from your region.
- zoover2020 4y ago
  Nice
- anonymousDan 4y ago
  What happens if your remote server thinks the primary is down when it isn't really, and you end up with two hot primaries? Is this just not an issue in practice?
  - systemvoltage 4y ago
    In that case, Postgres new-primary would just be detached and will not stream/pull additional new data from the old-primary after promotion. You should also make sure to divert all traffic to the new-primary. This problem happens in AWS RDS as well: https://docs.aws.amazon.com/AmazonRDS/latest/UserGuide/USER_ReadRepl.html#USER_ReadRepl.Promote https://docs.aws.amazon.com/AmazonRDS/latest/UserGuide/USER_... Actually, this might be much simpler with Cloudflare tunnels. So it failover scenario would be something like this: 1. Primary and Hot standby are active. CF tunnels are routing all traffic to primary. 2. Primary health check fails, use CF health alerts to promote Hot standby to primary (we'll call this new-primary). 3. Postgres promotion completes and new primary starts receiving traffic on CF tunnels automatically. 4. No traffic goes to old-primary. Backup data and use old-primary as a new hotstandby, configure replication again from new-primary. Even better strategy would be to use Hot Stanby as read-only so traffic is split dynamically depending on write or read needs by the app. Take a look at StackOverflow infra architecture: https://stackexchange.com/performance https://stackexchange.com/performance
treis 4y ago
I wish the thinking that leads to articles like the one in the OP would take physical form so I could take a baseball bat and release my frustrations by beating the hell out of it. So many of my current pains in the ass at work stem from adding complexity to get some benefit that does nothing to make our product better.
dmitriid 4y ago
99% of websites can run from the cheapest Digital Ocean droplet.
- bombcar 4y ago
  Some percentage of websites are actually Atlassian Confluence. Those might fall over.
  - pclmulqdq 4y ago
    Atlassian needs at least 100 cores and 1 TB of RAM to get anything resembling performance.
    - intelVISA 4y ago
      Only 1TB? You must have the lite version!
cercatrova 4y ago
Agreed, except without the Oracle part.
soperj 4y ago
Nothing from Oracle is ever free.
- systemvoltage 4y ago
  Nothing from anyone is ever free.
  - llamaLord 4y ago
    Yeah, but especially not Oracle.
    - alexvoda 4y ago
      Never trust the lawnmower to not mow your budget.
      - tobinfekkes 4y ago
        Is this a Bryan Cantrill reference? :)
        alexvoda 4y ago
        For those not in the know, you learn a piece of software developer lore today: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15886728 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15886728
sandGorgon 4y ago
the point is the developer audience that is just coming out of college...will not be familiar with postgres. they would make most of their applications saving data via "Durable Objects" on the edge. Someone just built Kafka using Durable Objects. Not arguing that DO is better that postgresql. I'm arguing that a lot of the developers wont realise that. Because the DX of durable objects is superior.
- llamaLord 4y ago
  *groans* is this another new name for an old thing? I know I could just Google it, but wtf is a durable object? It sounds like a json file… is it a json file? C’mon, tell me it’s NOT just a json file…
  - skybrian 4y ago
    It's a sharded key-value store with stored procedures written in JavaScript.
    - llamaLord 4y ago
      C'mon - lets not wrap it up in all that, be real. It's a JSON object and a few JS functions passed as arguments to a class constructor. I'm not saying it isn't an elegant design, but can we pls not talk about proprietary implementations of a particular design pattern as if they're some kind of industry standard?
      - skybrian 4y ago
        You're getting the data format confused with the database engine. Yes, a database might just be storing JSON, but how it's stored and replicated matters.

I would even say that for 99% of the existing websites a free oracle cloud instance with 4 cores and 24GB ram + cdn is more than enough.

by naiv 4y ago

I would even say that for 99% of the existing websites a free oracle cloud instance with 4 cores and 24GB ram + cdn is more than enough.

jensneuse 4y ago

I agree. It's probably good enough for a lot of use cases.

jl6 4y ago

Agree, except that amount of RAM ain’t free.

yusefnapora 4y ago
The free x86 VMs are capped at 1GB each, but the ARM ones go up to 24GB. > Arm-based Ampere A1 cores and 24 GB of memory usable as 1 VM or up to 4 VMs with 3,000 OCPU hours and 18,000 GB hours per month https://www.oracle.com/cloud/free/#always-free https://www.oracle.com/cloud/free/#always-free

qudat 4y ago

We use the cloud free tier for https://prose.sh https://prose.sh We aren’t even close to hitting any bottlenecks at this point

systemvoltage 4y ago

Here is my golden setup: Cloudflare Tunnels + All ports closed (except ssh) + bare metal server. You can scale to the moon with like a million active users on a couple of 16 core servers (1 primary, 1 hot failover). You don't need AWS. You don't need Terraform. You don't need kubernetes. Hell, you don't need docker because you know apriori what the deployment environment is. Just run systemd services. 99% of the startsup will never need anything more. They'll fail before that. The ones that succeed have a good problem on hand to actually Scale™. What we're seeing is premature-optimi...errr scaling. Edit more context: For Postgres, setup streaming replication between postgres and hot standby. You need a remote server somewhere to check health of your primary and run promote to your hot standby if it fails. It is not that difficult. Have cron jobs to back up your database with pgdumpall in addition somewhere on Backblaze or S3. Use your hot standby to run Grafana/Prometheus/Loki stack. For extra safety, run both servers on ZFS raid (mirror or raidz2) on nvme drives. You'll get like 100k IOPS which would be 300x of base RDS instance on AWS. Ridiculous savings and performance would be just astonishing. Run your app to call postgres on localhost, it will be the fastest web experience your customers will ever experience, on edge or not.

arcanemachiner 4y ago
Saving this
luckylion 4y ago
You still pay the latency cost, even though your data travels mostly inside CF's network. It's very noticeable when you're far away from the server, which you will be for most of the world if you sell to everyone. Perfectly fine if e.g. you're only targeting anyone from your region.
zoover2020 4y ago
Nice
anonymousDan 4y ago
What happens if your remote server thinks the primary is down when it isn't really, and you end up with two hot primaries? Is this just not an issue in practice?
- systemvoltage 4y ago
  In that case, Postgres new-primary would just be detached and will not stream/pull additional new data from the old-primary after promotion. You should also make sure to divert all traffic to the new-primary. This problem happens in AWS RDS as well: https://docs.aws.amazon.com/AmazonRDS/latest/UserGuide/USER_ReadRepl.html#USER_ReadRepl.Promote https://docs.aws.amazon.com/AmazonRDS/latest/UserGuide/USER_... Actually, this might be much simpler with Cloudflare tunnels. So it failover scenario would be something like this: 1. Primary and Hot standby are active. CF tunnels are routing all traffic to primary. 2. Primary health check fails, use CF health alerts to promote Hot standby to primary (we'll call this new-primary). 3. Postgres promotion completes and new primary starts receiving traffic on CF tunnels automatically. 4. No traffic goes to old-primary. Backup data and use old-primary as a new hotstandby, configure replication again from new-primary. Even better strategy would be to use Hot Stanby as read-only so traffic is split dynamically depending on write or read needs by the app. Take a look at StackOverflow infra architecture: https://stackexchange.com/performance https://stackexchange.com/performance

treis 4y ago

I wish the thinking that leads to articles like the one in the OP would take physical form so I could take a baseball bat and release my frustrations by beating the hell out of it. So many of my current pains in the ass at work stem from adding complexity to get some benefit that does nothing to make our product better.

dmitriid 4y ago

99% of websites can run from the cheapest Digital Ocean droplet.

bombcar 4y ago
Some percentage of websites are actually Atlassian Confluence. Those might fall over.
- pclmulqdq 4y ago
  Atlassian needs at least 100 cores and 1 TB of RAM to get anything resembling performance.
  - intelVISA 4y ago
    Only 1TB? You must have the lite version!

cercatrova 4y ago

Agreed, except without the Oracle part.

soperj 4y ago

Nothing from Oracle is ever free.

systemvoltage 4y ago
Nothing from anyone is ever free.
- llamaLord 4y ago
  Yeah, but especially not Oracle.
  - alexvoda 4y ago
    Never trust the lawnmower to not mow your budget.
    - tobinfekkes 4y ago
      Is this a Bryan Cantrill reference? :)
      - alexvoda 4y ago
        For those not in the know, you learn a piece of software developer lore today: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15886728 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15886728

sandGorgon 4y ago

the point is the developer audience that is just coming out of college...will not be familiar with postgres. they would make most of their applications saving data via "Durable Objects" on the edge. Someone just built Kafka using Durable Objects. Not arguing that DO is better that postgresql. I'm arguing that a lot of the developers wont realise that. Because the DX of durable objects is superior.

llamaLord 4y ago
*groans* is this another new name for an old thing? I know I could just Google it, but wtf is a durable object? It sounds like a json file… is it a json file? C’mon, tell me it’s NOT just a json file…
- skybrian 4y ago
  It's a sharded key-value store with stored procedures written in JavaScript.
  - llamaLord 4y ago
    C'mon - lets not wrap it up in all that, be real. It's a JSON object and a few JS functions passed as arguments to a class constructor. I'm not saying it isn't an elegant design, but can we pls not talk about proprietary implementations of a particular design pattern as if they're some kind of industry standard?
    - skybrian 4y ago
      You're getting the data format confused with the database engine. Yes, a database might just be storing JSON, but how it's stored and replicated matters.