5 ms·

Where's the part in that article where it was proven he did not? There was certainly a miscarriage of justice, but it sounds like everything still ended in a he

Where's the part in that article where it was proven he did not? There was certainly a miscarriage of justice, but it sounds like everything still ended in a he-said-she-said. From your description, I was expecting an eventual proof of innocence and didn't see it. There's even a quote from the jury foreman insisting that the verdict shouldn't be interpreted the way you're interpreting it.

thakoppno 4y ago
That would require proving a negative. I agree with your conclusion that nothing is truly proven.
- sparky_z 4y ago
  We're not arguing over the existence of God here. Sure, you can never truly prove a negative, but you can never truly prove a positive either. New evidence leading to exoneration (above and beyond a mere finding of "not guilty") is still a coherent and useful concept to anyone who isn't philosophizing their way up their own ass. There could have been something like DNA evidence eventually showing a different perpetrator, or proof that he was in a different country when the alleged incidents occurred. The sort of thing that would make it instantly clear to any reasonable observer that the recovered memories did not reflect reality. I was primed to expect an eventual finding like that, but there wasn't one.
jtbayly 4y ago
To understand this better, read "Try to Remember", by Paul R. McHugh. Therapists can and do often cause false memories and do real damage.
- Silverback_VII 4y ago
  > can and do often cause false memories and do real damage. False memories are almost always viewed as negative and certainly not desirable but what if you could use this effect for what you want to achieve? False memories as way to engineer your past and improve your own life?
  - bumby 4y ago
    Isn’t having an accurate model of reality considered an inherent good? Is being delusional somehow good as long as it leads to preferred outcomes? Seems questionable to me and rife with potential bad incentives.
    - cstrahan 4y ago
      If the false memories are constrained to sentiment, then I think it could be alright. I’ve become quite disillusioned with many things over the years; this disillusionment only serves to bum me out. If I could rewrite some of the few pivotal experiences that have me feeling this way, I would immediately benefit: I’d have more fulfillment in what I do and my disposition would benefit from looking forward to things as I used to. On the other hand, one could imagine expunging useful negative feedback and being worse off (e.g. less socially adapted, lacking in character, etc).
    - xboxnolifes 4y ago
      Say you only have terrible, traumatic memories of extremely violent abuse throughout your entire life that is causing you such extreme issues that prevents you from leaving your room or interacting with anyone. Would you still prefer an accurate model of your life over a useful model of your life? Inherently good doesn't imply inherently better than some alternative.
      - bumby 4y ago
        >Would you still prefer an accurate model of your life over a useful model of your life? In the short term, absolutely. But I think my preference would be to work through the actual experience through different methods of therapy so that long term you aren’t forced to choose between reality and a functional existence. I don’t think the MIB eraser device is a good long term coping strategy.
        xboxnolifes 4y ago
        >But I think my preference would be to work through the actual experience through different methods of therapy so that long term you aren’t forced to choose between reality and a functional existence. Who is to say that therapy isn't just creating a useful model of your life?

thakoppno 4y ago

That would require proving a negative. I agree with your conclusion that nothing is truly proven.

sparky_z 4y ago
We're not arguing over the existence of God here. Sure, you can never truly prove a negative, but you can never truly prove a positive either. New evidence leading to exoneration (above and beyond a mere finding of "not guilty") is still a coherent and useful concept to anyone who isn't philosophizing their way up their own ass. There could have been something like DNA evidence eventually showing a different perpetrator, or proof that he was in a different country when the alleged incidents occurred. The sort of thing that would make it instantly clear to any reasonable observer that the recovered memories did not reflect reality. I was primed to expect an eventual finding like that, but there wasn't one.

jtbayly 4y ago

To understand this better, read "Try to Remember", by Paul R. McHugh. Therapists can and do often cause false memories and do real damage.

Silverback_VII 4y ago
> can and do often cause false memories and do real damage. False memories are almost always viewed as negative and certainly not desirable but what if you could use this effect for what you want to achieve? False memories as way to engineer your past and improve your own life?
- bumby 4y ago
  Isn’t having an accurate model of reality considered an inherent good? Is being delusional somehow good as long as it leads to preferred outcomes? Seems questionable to me and rife with potential bad incentives.
  - cstrahan 4y ago
    If the false memories are constrained to sentiment, then I think it could be alright. I’ve become quite disillusioned with many things over the years; this disillusionment only serves to bum me out. If I could rewrite some of the few pivotal experiences that have me feeling this way, I would immediately benefit: I’d have more fulfillment in what I do and my disposition would benefit from looking forward to things as I used to. On the other hand, one could imagine expunging useful negative feedback and being worse off (e.g. less socially adapted, lacking in character, etc).
  - xboxnolifes 4y ago
    Say you only have terrible, traumatic memories of extremely violent abuse throughout your entire life that is causing you such extreme issues that prevents you from leaving your room or interacting with anyone. Would you still prefer an accurate model of your life over a useful model of your life? Inherently good doesn't imply inherently better than some alternative.
    - bumby 4y ago
      >Would you still prefer an accurate model of your life over a useful model of your life? In the short term, absolutely. But I think my preference would be to work through the actual experience through different methods of therapy so that long term you aren’t forced to choose between reality and a functional existence. I don’t think the MIB eraser device is a good long term coping strategy.
      - xboxnolifes 4y ago
        >But I think my preference would be to work through the actual experience through different methods of therapy so that long term you aren’t forced to choose between reality and a functional existence. Who is to say that therapy isn't just creating a useful model of your life?