5 ms·

That study seems somewhat unethical to me. There’s no way to do this without informed consent and I can imagine feeling really disturbed should something like t

That study seems somewhat unethical to me. There’s no way to do this without informed consent and I can imagine feeling really disturbed should something like this happen to me. The result is interesting but I have difficulty understanding the lens bio-ethicists applied designing and approving this.

Swizec 4y ago
> I can imagine feeling really disturbed should something like this happen to me Now realize that this can happen with therapy. As your therapist helps you deal with trauma, some of it can be false memories. Like in that case where a woman became convinced her dad molested her as a child. It was later proven that he did not and she was likely never molested at all. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramona_false_memory_case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramona_false_memory_case edit: I mis-remembered (ha!), it was later judged that the father didn't do this, but you can't prove a negative so that's the best we'll ever get
- sparky_z 4y ago
  Where's the part in that article where it was proven he did not? There was certainly a miscarriage of justice, but it sounds like everything still ended in a he-said-she-said. From your description, I was expecting an eventual proof of innocence and didn't see it. There's even a quote from the jury foreman insisting that the verdict shouldn't be interpreted the way you're interpreting it.
  - thakoppno 4y ago
    That would require proving a negative. I agree with your conclusion that nothing is truly proven.
    - sparky_z 4y ago
      We're not arguing over the existence of God here. Sure, you can never truly prove a negative, but you can never truly prove a positive either. New evidence leading to exoneration (above and beyond a mere finding of "not guilty") is still a coherent and useful concept to anyone who isn't philosophizing their way up their own ass. There could have been something like DNA evidence eventually showing a different perpetrator, or proof that he was in a different country when the alleged incidents occurred. The sort of thing that would make it instantly clear to any reasonable observer that the recovered memories did not reflect reality. I was primed to expect an eventual finding like that, but there wasn't one.
  - jtbayly 4y ago
    To understand this better, read "Try to Remember", by Paul R. McHugh. Therapists can and do often cause false memories and do real damage.
    - Silverback_VII 4y ago
      > can and do often cause false memories and do real damage. False memories are almost always viewed as negative and certainly not desirable but what if you could use this effect for what you want to achieve? False memories as way to engineer your past and improve your own life?
      - bumby 4y ago
        Isn’t having an accurate model of reality considered an inherent good? Is being delusional somehow good as long as it leads to preferred outcomes? Seems questionable to me and rife with potential bad incentives.
        cstrahan 4y ago
        If the false memories are constrained to sentiment, then I think it could be alright. I’ve become quite disillusioned with many things over the years; this disillusionment only serves to bum me out. If I could rewrite some of the few pivotal experiences that have me feeling this way, I would immediately benefit: I’d have more fulfillment in what I do and my disposition would benefit from looking forward to things as I used to. On the other hand, one could imagine expunging useful negative feedback and being worse off (e.g. less socially adapted, lacking in character, etc).
        xboxnolifes 4y ago
        Say you only have terrible, traumatic memories of extremely violent abuse throughout your entire life that is causing you such extreme issues that prevents you from leaving your room or interacting with anyone. Would you still prefer an accurate model of your life over a useful model of your life? Inherently good doesn't imply inherently better than some alternative.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
daniel-cussen 4y ago
Tarq0n 4y ago
Is it unethical to make someone feel disturbed? It doesn't seem particularly serious or disproportional to me.
- capableweb 4y ago
  If it's informed that you will be possibly disturbed by the experiment, I don't think so. But if you agree to an experiment and wasn't told about it, then yes. Imagine you sign up to a behavioural experiment, and they put you in front of a tv showing very disturbing images to see how you react, but wasn't told about it beforehand, I don't see how that could be considered ethical.
GuB-42 4y ago
> There’s no way to do this without informed consent Do you mean with informed consent? Sometimes, such experiments can work even with informed consent. As in: "we will show you some pictures of your childhood, some of them may be fake" and you can still be convinced by the fake picture. Just like the placebo effect can work even when the patient knows he is given a placebo.
- LeonB 4y ago
  I think they mean “There’s no ethical way to do this without informed consent”
  - thakoppno 4y ago
    thank you this is what i meant. it’s really interesting to me how unclear my original phrasing was without even knowing it.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
naasking 4y ago
> I can imagine feeling really disturbed should something like this happen to me. It is happening to you, every single day, you just didn't know it before. You should be disturbed, that's the point.

Swizec 4y ago

> I can imagine feeling really disturbed should something like this happen to me Now realize that this can happen with therapy. As your therapist helps you deal with trauma, some of it can be false memories. Like in that case where a woman became convinced her dad molested her as a child. It was later proven that he did not and she was likely never molested at all. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramona_false_memory_case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramona_false_memory_case edit: I mis-remembered (ha!), it was later judged that the father didn't do this, but you can't prove a negative so that's the best we'll ever get

sparky_z 4y ago
Where's the part in that article where it was proven he did not? There was certainly a miscarriage of justice, but it sounds like everything still ended in a he-said-she-said. From your description, I was expecting an eventual proof of innocence and didn't see it. There's even a quote from the jury foreman insisting that the verdict shouldn't be interpreted the way you're interpreting it.
- thakoppno 4y ago
  That would require proving a negative. I agree with your conclusion that nothing is truly proven.
  - sparky_z 4y ago
    We're not arguing over the existence of God here. Sure, you can never truly prove a negative, but you can never truly prove a positive either. New evidence leading to exoneration (above and beyond a mere finding of "not guilty") is still a coherent and useful concept to anyone who isn't philosophizing their way up their own ass. There could have been something like DNA evidence eventually showing a different perpetrator, or proof that he was in a different country when the alleged incidents occurred. The sort of thing that would make it instantly clear to any reasonable observer that the recovered memories did not reflect reality. I was primed to expect an eventual finding like that, but there wasn't one.
- jtbayly 4y ago
  To understand this better, read "Try to Remember", by Paul R. McHugh. Therapists can and do often cause false memories and do real damage.
  - Silverback_VII 4y ago
    > can and do often cause false memories and do real damage. False memories are almost always viewed as negative and certainly not desirable but what if you could use this effect for what you want to achieve? False memories as way to engineer your past and improve your own life?
    - bumby 4y ago
      Isn’t having an accurate model of reality considered an inherent good? Is being delusional somehow good as long as it leads to preferred outcomes? Seems questionable to me and rife with potential bad incentives.
      - cstrahan 4y ago
        If the false memories are constrained to sentiment, then I think it could be alright. I’ve become quite disillusioned with many things over the years; this disillusionment only serves to bum me out. If I could rewrite some of the few pivotal experiences that have me feeling this way, I would immediately benefit: I’d have more fulfillment in what I do and my disposition would benefit from looking forward to things as I used to. On the other hand, one could imagine expunging useful negative feedback and being worse off (e.g. less socially adapted, lacking in character, etc).
      - xboxnolifes 4y ago
        Say you only have terrible, traumatic memories of extremely violent abuse throughout your entire life that is causing you such extreme issues that prevents you from leaving your room or interacting with anyone. Would you still prefer an accurate model of your life over a useful model of your life? Inherently good doesn't imply inherently better than some alternative.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

daniel-cussen 4y ago

Tarq0n 4y ago

Is it unethical to make someone feel disturbed? It doesn't seem particularly serious or disproportional to me.

capableweb 4y ago
If it's informed that you will be possibly disturbed by the experiment, I don't think so. But if you agree to an experiment and wasn't told about it, then yes. Imagine you sign up to a behavioural experiment, and they put you in front of a tv showing very disturbing images to see how you react, but wasn't told about it beforehand, I don't see how that could be considered ethical.

GuB-42 4y ago

> There’s no way to do this without informed consent Do you mean with informed consent? Sometimes, such experiments can work even with informed consent. As in: "we will show you some pictures of your childhood, some of them may be fake" and you can still be convinced by the fake picture. Just like the placebo effect can work even when the patient knows he is given a placebo.

LeonB 4y ago
I think they mean “There’s no ethical way to do this without informed consent”
- thakoppno 4y ago
  thank you this is what i meant. it’s really interesting to me how unclear my original phrasing was without even knowing it.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

naasking 4y ago

> I can imagine feeling really disturbed should something like this happen to me. It is happening to you, every single day, you just didn't know it before. You should be disturbed, that's the point.