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I'm going through John Vervaeke's "Awakening from the Meaning Crisis" on youtube and it's fascinating. One thing he means to answer is: why do we have these alt

I'm going through John Vervaeke's "Awakening from the Meaning Crisis" on youtube and it's fascinating. One thing he means to answer is: why do we have these altered consciousness experiences where we come back from it, and unlike most altered experiences (being drunk; dreaming), we say THAT was more real than THIS? And then profoundly change our lives in a positive way? Especially since the actual contents of the altered state are usually known falsehoods, and people come back with contradictory propositions (I saw God vs. I saw there is no god.) He has some very plausible explanations for why these experiences can be hugely positively transformative despite the actual contents of them (and propositional beliefs stemming from them) being largely meaningless.

giantg2 4y ago
My thoughts are that the facts don't matter. Even in the real world, people hold beliefs that are largely irrelevant to the facts. For stuff like being drunk or having dreams, your memory of them tends to be even worse rest in other scenarios. It's hard to form a solid belief around something so unclear. It's much easier to form a belief around a clearly remembered falsehood. I find it similar to how friendships are formed - it's less about what you have in common and more about shared context. Clear memory of that context is a prerequisite.
throwaway284234 4y ago
And what are those actual life changing amazing positive changes that happen? Sounds just like weed smokers who convince you they have all these amazing ideas which they somehow can never write down and keep for later. Maybe it's just the drug that makes you feel like something pretty mundane is life changing because you have just traumatised your brain
- DontchaKnowit 4y ago
  agreed that almost always hallucinogen users reference some ambiguous change in perception that changed their life. It's hullshit and self delusion almost all of the time. However, here is 1 concrete example from my own life. I had a friend who was extremely manipulative and would lie to me constantly to get sympathy or compliment me to ingratitude himself. He would steal from me,but most of the time he didn't need to because he knew I was generous and I would give him basically anything he asked for. Cause we were "friends" I took acid, and watched him come over to my house and completely commandeer a party. I just sat watching his mannerisms. How he interacted with people. It became so clear immediately that he was an absolute fucking sociopath. When I sobered up I booted him out of my life for the better. And this was not a case of me reading things into him that weren't there. When I sobered up I talked to all my friends and they were like "yeah that guys a fucking bastard we all wondered why you put up with him" Something about the trip allowed me to perceive him in a way that I could not or would not have otherwise. I saw right through his flattery and fake charm. Weird example, but in my life it's the only concrete example of a positive change from psychedelics. Now I've got about a million negative stories, but there's a positive one for ya.
- furyofantares 4y ago
  This is something that's actually studied in cognitive science, you're free to watch the (very long) lecture series if you're interested, the transformative experiences being discussed are very much not about "some weed smokers." The series is pretty clear about the actual contents of altered states being largely garbage, so your observation and skepticism regarding "amazing ideas which they somehow can never write down and keep for later" is exactly in line with some of what's being discussed there, not contrary to it.

giantg2 4y ago

My thoughts are that the facts don't matter. Even in the real world, people hold beliefs that are largely irrelevant to the facts. For stuff like being drunk or having dreams, your memory of them tends to be even worse rest in other scenarios. It's hard to form a solid belief around something so unclear. It's much easier to form a belief around a clearly remembered falsehood. I find it similar to how friendships are formed - it's less about what you have in common and more about shared context. Clear memory of that context is a prerequisite.

throwaway284234 4y ago

And what are those actual life changing amazing positive changes that happen? Sounds just like weed smokers who convince you they have all these amazing ideas which they somehow can never write down and keep for later. Maybe it's just the drug that makes you feel like something pretty mundane is life changing because you have just traumatised your brain

DontchaKnowit 4y ago
agreed that almost always hallucinogen users reference some ambiguous change in perception that changed their life. It's hullshit and self delusion almost all of the time. However, here is 1 concrete example from my own life. I had a friend who was extremely manipulative and would lie to me constantly to get sympathy or compliment me to ingratitude himself. He would steal from me,but most of the time he didn't need to because he knew I was generous and I would give him basically anything he asked for. Cause we were "friends" I took acid, and watched him come over to my house and completely commandeer a party. I just sat watching his mannerisms. How he interacted with people. It became so clear immediately that he was an absolute fucking sociopath. When I sobered up I booted him out of my life for the better. And this was not a case of me reading things into him that weren't there. When I sobered up I talked to all my friends and they were like "yeah that guys a fucking bastard we all wondered why you put up with him" Something about the trip allowed me to perceive him in a way that I could not or would not have otherwise. I saw right through his flattery and fake charm. Weird example, but in my life it's the only concrete example of a positive change from psychedelics. Now I've got about a million negative stories, but there's a positive one for ya.
furyofantares 4y ago
This is something that's actually studied in cognitive science, you're free to watch the (very long) lecture series if you're interested, the transformative experiences being discussed are very much not about "some weed smokers." The series is pretty clear about the actual contents of altered states being largely garbage, so your observation and skepticism regarding "amazing ideas which they somehow can never write down and keep for later" is exactly in line with some of what's being discussed there, not contrary to it.