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We understand Meta sometimes future projects that their devices will have broad office applications, but we're skeptical it has any teeth. Consider that Atari

We understand Meta sometimes future projects that their devices will have broad office applications, but we're skeptical it has any teeth. Consider that Atari tried to compete with office PCs in the early 80s with their 8-bit family, and failed: https://images.fastcompany.net/image/upload/w_596,c_limit,q_auto:best,f_auto/wp-cms/uploads/2019/12/i-atari-ad.jpg https://images.fastcompany.net/image/upload/w_596,c_limit,q_... It's hard to focus on multiple things at once, and we're skeptical that the bureaucratic forces in play at a large company like Meta will allow them to do a good job at making their gaming platform also one that people actually want to work in.

cableshaft 4y ago
And there are plenty of instances of companies that have gone under when a big parent company decides to incorporate your business as a 'feature' in part of their big monster product. I'm not saying it's going to definitely happen and the company is doomed or anything, it's certainly possible that SimulaVR will come out on top for productivity devices (or peacefully coexist as an alternative alongside Meta's offering). But it shouldn't ignore what Meta is doing either, especially when they're actively saying they're moving into their turf. At the very least, it looks like Meta will put up a helluva fight.
- kanetw 4y ago
  Of course anything Meta does is a bit worrisome. I just don't think we're in the same niche-- IMO Meta is fundamentally built on data collection, and VR is just a side effect. Unless Meta decides to abandon that, I think we'll have a niche.
  - romanhn 4y ago
    This is similar to saying "Facebook is fundamentally built on data collection, and social networking is just a side effect." Technically true, but not much consolation for all the social networks that didn't go all in on advertising and perished. Wish you the best of luck either way, this is an exciting area and more competition is great. They definitely are competition though.
    - kanetw 4y ago
      Yeah, of course, it's a tough space to be in. Just saying that we need to carve out a niche where Meta can't compete vs try to fight Meta head on.
      - MadcapJake 4y ago
        I am failing to see a separate niche here. There are only so many ways you can break down office productivity focus and still have a market to support you. Your team should accept the facts and stop trying to wiggle out of competing with your--frankly--main rival in this space. It doesn't do any justice to avoid this truth. Honestly, I'd be shocked if you weren't already closely monitoring their work and its reaction in the market. I think Meta's strategy was the right one. The only execs who would even consider adopting a virtual work model would be gamers who are already familiar with the tool. Gaming was their way to get in the minds of their potential next phase enterprise customers.
        MikusR 4y ago
        Based on comments in this thread, SimulaVR thinks of itself the same way Microsoft did when they made Windows phone.
        georgewsinger 4y ago
        I totally disagree with this. Early gaming consoles (~70s) took off roughly a decade before early PCs (~80s). Yet many of the people who bought the latter had little interest in the former. They were two completely distinct markets (with some, but clearly not extensive overlap). We've had many people tell us (often on Hacker News actually) that they're not super interested in VR gaming, but are very interested in VR computing. (I myself am one of these people BTW; despite working in VR for half a decade now, I have almost no interest in VR gaming, and wouldn't be interested in the field were it not for its enormous potential as a new thinking tool).
        MadcapJake 4y ago
        Little interest or had they just grown up? My point is that interest in sci-fi technologies and having some interest (prior or current) in gaming are highly overlapping demographics. Many games explore interactions with future technologies. Additionally, from a technical perspective of an executive who is looking into VR, "if a headset can provide the fidelity to play games then that would mean it can likely do X and Y complex things my business does"
  - vineyardmike 4y ago
    > IMO Meta is fundamentally built on data collection Isn’t their whole Metaverse thing a gamble to get away from that? Why does data collection prevent creating a good VR experience. If anything it should align goals well (spend as much time in VR as possible, so as much in VR as possible). Besides, most DataCollection companies offer CollectionFree enterprise contracts… which is where the money for this probably is. (Btw I’m a huge fan of this sort of product and I hope a respectful company wins.. I’m just skeptical that meta can’t fund their way to success. )
    - nonplus 4y ago
      > Isn’t their whole Metaverse thing a gamble to get away from that? Many of us think Meta is trying to gain as much market as they can early, so they can leverage eye tracking and mm wave tech for very invasive biometric collection and ad targeting in the future. Reasonable minds can disagree on that.
      - vineyardmike 4y ago
        Pretty sure Zuck has said outright that the goal is to own the economy of the metaverse… selling digital stuff and digital places with digital ads and (digital?) media. It could be a gambit to track your eyes but that seems even harder with worse reward than taking a 30% cut as the next App Store.
        antifa 4y ago
        Maybe eye tracking is the fallback plan for when everyone figures out NFTs are the strongest known combination of expensive and valueless.
        nonplus 4y ago
        > It could be a gambit to track your eyes but that seems even harder with worse reward than taking a 30% cut as the next App Store. No these are the same thing. Tracking pupil response to stimuli tells advertisers how a human is reacting to what they see. It lets Meta sell a platform to advertisers where they can target humans in particular emotional states, or at certain times when that individual is more likely to make a purchase.
  - MadcapJake 4y ago
    Enterprise loves data collection so that's really a perfect fit for their next phase customer base. That's why I think the Meta account system was important for them to get done pre Quest Pro launch (and significantly early too so any issues are worked out before enterprise demos start)
bin_bash 4y ago
Ben Thompson is fairly bullish on Enterprise Metaverses after having used Workrooms: https://stratechery.com/2021/enterprise-metaverses-horizon-workrooms-workrooms-facebook-problem/ https://stratechery.com/2021/enterprise-metaverses-horizon-w... > I don’t want to go too far given I’ve only tried Workrooms out once, but this feels like something real. And, just as importantly, there is, thanks to COVID, a real use case. Of course companies will need to be convinced, and hardware will need to be bought, but that’s another reason why the work angle is so compelling: companies are willing to pay for tools that increase productivity to a much greater extent than consumers are.
- vineyardmike 4y ago
  I’m a lot less important than Ben but just wanted to +1 that it’s pretty compelling use case once experiencing it. It’s not there yet, mostly due to resolution issues and long term comfort issues, but it’s close enough to show it’s absolutely viable. I bought the quest2 since it was cheap as a pandemic entertainment device and while I never play it, I regularly wish for a VR monitor (eg a high res nreal air)
  - random314 4y ago
    What about loss of facial expressivity? I guess whispering to your neighbor works a lot better. And how is the whiteboarding experience?
    - Karrot_Kream 4y ago
      A lot of Quest games can actually turn audio into mouth movements on an avatar. I play Walkabout Mini Golf with my friends a lot and it's incredible how natural the mouth movements seem to match my friends' speech. I'll turn to them complaining about par on a hole and I'll see them speak in response. The new Quest headsets are supposed to have some features for facial expression tracking for exactly this reason. But yeah, no doubt there's still a ways to go for the experience to be worthwhile.
    - onepointsixC 4y ago
onepointsixC 4y ago
>It's hard to focus on multiple things at once, and we're skeptical that the bureaucratic forces in play at a large company like Meta will allow them to do a good job at making their gaming platform also one that people actually want to work in. The problem with your assertion is that you over count how many multiple things Meta has to do. What will make for a very good gaming VR Headset will also be a very good professional and productivity headset. The key aspects which Mark Zuckerberg laid out personally in the recent VR Prototypes unveil pretty universally hit both targets. Comfortable light weight headsets with incredible fidelity is desirable for all VR applications. Not just gaming.
- statop 4y ago
  Yea… nothing I’ve seen from them is compelling. My bet is Mark is going to burn a LOT of money, fail to get mass adoption, cancel the project, and lay the design team off. But who knows! Maybe we’ll all be taking work meetings in MetaLife this time next year! Just make sure you login to your meeting 5 minutes early to preview the new season of BigBrother and score an extra 60 seconds of microphone mute time!
  - onepointsixC 4y ago
    >Yea… nothing I’ve seen from them is compelling. From Meta or from SimulaVR? Because Meta has been selling one of the best VR Headsets for the money thus far. I'd really recommend checking out their VR Headsets announcement [1]. Maybe VR will never actually go anywhere software-wise, but it's clear that the team at Meta has a good understand of the problems of current headsets and what would be necessary to make a generational leap in immersiveness. I'm certain there will be markets for it. >My bet is Mark is going to burn a LOT of money, fail to get mass adoption, cancel the project, and lay the design team off. I don't think they're going to cancel it. It's very much a hail marry here. The Facebook phone was a massive flop and the cumulative result of failing to have their own hardware platform was Apple killing their mobile ads business. I think Meta will do everything in it's power to own it's own hardware so that whatever their business model is, no competitor could just kill it with a flip of a switch. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMpWH6vDZ8E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMpWH6vDZ8E
majormajor 4y ago
"We don't think they're competent enough to be a competitor" is a bad way to judge whether you're competing with someone. It's like Apple laughing at the IBM PC.
- chaostheory 4y ago
  Looking at the new videos related to the upcoming Quest Pro that will be announced next week, the simulavr guys are dead wrong. https://www.reddit.com/r/AR_MR_XR/comments/xwjzni/meta_quest_pro_mixed_reality_passthrough https://www.reddit.com/r/AR_MR_XR/comments/xwjzni/meta_quest...
  - georgewsinger 4y ago
    What you're seeing: a Meta headset tethered to a laptop over WiFi running Immersed. What you're not seeing: a standalone VR headset running a VR Desktop OS natively with bleeding edge pixel density (i.e., like the Simula One). We understand that Meta has some cool tools in its app store which can be used to get a feel for VR computing. But analogously, you could also purchase word processors for early gaming consoles too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AtariWriter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AtariWriter Our view is that dedicated VR computing devices are what the market actually needs.
    - wahnfrieden 4y ago
      apple would agree
    - spiffytech 4y ago
      Does Simula's tethered option affect this calculus?
      - georgewsinger 4y ago
        A bit, but not much. Our tethered option is for people who want to connect to beefier hosts because they need the extra GPU power (or want to use our headset's high pixel density for gaming purposes). We've sold very few of them though. Our primary offering is our standalone unit.
MadcapJake 4y ago
"Do a good job" is different from intent to compete. Horizon Workrooms, keyboard passthrough, and multi-app support screams non-entertainment functionality. And that's just what's been released pre-Quest Pro...
tomxor 4y ago
> Consider that Atari tried to compete with office PCs in the early 80s with their 8-bit family, and failed I don't think that's very accurate. The Atari ST had a pretty good following compared to personal computers of the time much like the Amiga... The fact is that most computer companies from back then did not survive far beyond the decade but they had their time. So it's not really accurate to say they failed when Acorn, Amiga, Amstrad...etc, all "failed", in that they didn't produce more than a handful of unique and fairly incompatible computers with no clear future, but that had a market and sold with success in their time frame none the less.
- antiterra 4y ago
  I don’t think he meant the computers as a whole were unsuccessful, but the bid to enter the business sector was. The common consensus is they failed because Atari was so strongly associated with games. I assume there are possibly greater reasons, but it is true Tramiel and others tried the pivot and it failed.
urthor 4y ago
https://twitter.com/jasuminsui/status/1577867376522973185?t=JuDoMvkMkLu1x00W4FfnIA&s=19 https://twitter.com/jasuminsui/status/1577867376522973185?t=... I assume you've read?
- georgewsinger 4y ago
  I haven't read. Will check it out!
bgribble 4y ago
As a very nearsighted programmer suffering from increasing age-related farsightedness, I often fantasize about a VR headset that would allow me to comfortably focus (say 6 feet away while wearing contacts) on a huge virtual tmux session for coding. I don't know if this is even remotely a possibility but it sure would beat dealing with constant CSS (can't see s*t)
- kanetw 4y ago
  Prescription inserts (we're working with vendors on this) are possible, and the focus distance of our headset (and most headsets, I think) is in that region.
- mncharity 4y ago
  IIRC, Nreal Light is 2 m focus distance. Crisp 1080p. Weight/fit... I'd perhaps diy a hat or strap for long-duration use, depending on face shape. Reddit suggests newer Nreal Air is 4 m.
ynx 4y ago
As someone who used to work there, I would be significantly more afraid. VR there has never been exclusively about gaming nor has gaming been the overall goal of VR since their acquisition. The way they talked about it back in the day was, if I recall accurately, that they were focused on three pillars: "The metaverse", "The overlay", and "The future of work". Social presence, real-life AR metadata, and expanding the screens and capabilities of working professionals, respectively. The direction of their research and implementation has, at least to my knowledge, been oriented literally towards creating a new category of general purpose productivity devices and admitting as much in a very public blog post is a pretty big own-goal if the idea is to try to avoid the subpoena by distinguishing yourselves (assuming you're speaking on behalf of SimulaVR).

cableshaft 4y ago

And there are plenty of instances of companies that have gone under when a big parent company decides to incorporate your business as a 'feature' in part of their big monster product. I'm not saying it's going to definitely happen and the company is doomed or anything, it's certainly possible that SimulaVR will come out on top for productivity devices (or peacefully coexist as an alternative alongside Meta's offering). But it shouldn't ignore what Meta is doing either, especially when they're actively saying they're moving into their turf. At the very least, it looks like Meta will put up a helluva fight.

kanetw 4y ago
Of course anything Meta does is a bit worrisome. I just don't think we're in the same niche-- IMO Meta is fundamentally built on data collection, and VR is just a side effect. Unless Meta decides to abandon that, I think we'll have a niche.
- romanhn 4y ago
  This is similar to saying "Facebook is fundamentally built on data collection, and social networking is just a side effect." Technically true, but not much consolation for all the social networks that didn't go all in on advertising and perished. Wish you the best of luck either way, this is an exciting area and more competition is great. They definitely are competition though.
  - kanetw 4y ago
    Yeah, of course, it's a tough space to be in. Just saying that we need to carve out a niche where Meta can't compete vs try to fight Meta head on.
    - MadcapJake 4y ago
      I am failing to see a separate niche here. There are only so many ways you can break down office productivity focus and still have a market to support you. Your team should accept the facts and stop trying to wiggle out of competing with your--frankly--main rival in this space. It doesn't do any justice to avoid this truth. Honestly, I'd be shocked if you weren't already closely monitoring their work and its reaction in the market. I think Meta's strategy was the right one. The only execs who would even consider adopting a virtual work model would be gamers who are already familiar with the tool. Gaming was their way to get in the minds of their potential next phase enterprise customers.
      - MikusR 4y ago
        Based on comments in this thread, SimulaVR thinks of itself the same way Microsoft did when they made Windows phone.
      - georgewsinger 4y ago
        I totally disagree with this. Early gaming consoles (~70s) took off roughly a decade before early PCs (~80s). Yet many of the people who bought the latter had little interest in the former. They were two completely distinct markets (with some, but clearly not extensive overlap). We've had many people tell us (often on Hacker News actually) that they're not super interested in VR gaming, but are very interested in VR computing. (I myself am one of these people BTW; despite working in VR for half a decade now, I have almost no interest in VR gaming, and wouldn't be interested in the field were it not for its enormous potential as a new thinking tool).
        MadcapJake 4y ago
        Little interest or had they just grown up? My point is that interest in sci-fi technologies and having some interest (prior or current) in gaming are highly overlapping demographics. Many games explore interactions with future technologies. Additionally, from a technical perspective of an executive who is looking into VR, "if a headset can provide the fidelity to play games then that would mean it can likely do X and Y complex things my business does"
- vineyardmike 4y ago
  > IMO Meta is fundamentally built on data collection Isn’t their whole Metaverse thing a gamble to get away from that? Why does data collection prevent creating a good VR experience. If anything it should align goals well (spend as much time in VR as possible, so as much in VR as possible). Besides, most DataCollection companies offer CollectionFree enterprise contracts… which is where the money for this probably is. (Btw I’m a huge fan of this sort of product and I hope a respectful company wins.. I’m just skeptical that meta can’t fund their way to success. )
  - nonplus 4y ago
    > Isn’t their whole Metaverse thing a gamble to get away from that? Many of us think Meta is trying to gain as much market as they can early, so they can leverage eye tracking and mm wave tech for very invasive biometric collection and ad targeting in the future. Reasonable minds can disagree on that.
    - vineyardmike 4y ago
      Pretty sure Zuck has said outright that the goal is to own the economy of the metaverse… selling digital stuff and digital places with digital ads and (digital?) media. It could be a gambit to track your eyes but that seems even harder with worse reward than taking a 30% cut as the next App Store.
      - antifa 4y ago
        Maybe eye tracking is the fallback plan for when everyone figures out NFTs are the strongest known combination of expensive and valueless.
      - nonplus 4y ago
        > It could be a gambit to track your eyes but that seems even harder with worse reward than taking a 30% cut as the next App Store. No these are the same thing. Tracking pupil response to stimuli tells advertisers how a human is reacting to what they see. It lets Meta sell a platform to advertisers where they can target humans in particular emotional states, or at certain times when that individual is more likely to make a purchase.
- MadcapJake 4y ago
  Enterprise loves data collection so that's really a perfect fit for their next phase customer base. That's why I think the Meta account system was important for them to get done pre Quest Pro launch (and significantly early too so any issues are worked out before enterprise demos start)

bin_bash 4y ago

Ben Thompson is fairly bullish on Enterprise Metaverses after having used Workrooms: https://stratechery.com/2021/enterprise-metaverses-horizon-workrooms-workrooms-facebook-problem/ https://stratechery.com/2021/enterprise-metaverses-horizon-w... > I don’t want to go too far given I’ve only tried Workrooms out once, but this feels like something real. And, just as importantly, there is, thanks to COVID, a real use case. Of course companies will need to be convinced, and hardware will need to be bought, but that’s another reason why the work angle is so compelling: companies are willing to pay for tools that increase productivity to a much greater extent than consumers are.

vineyardmike 4y ago
I’m a lot less important than Ben but just wanted to +1 that it’s pretty compelling use case once experiencing it. It’s not there yet, mostly due to resolution issues and long term comfort issues, but it’s close enough to show it’s absolutely viable. I bought the quest2 since it was cheap as a pandemic entertainment device and while I never play it, I regularly wish for a VR monitor (eg a high res nreal air)
- random314 4y ago
  What about loss of facial expressivity? I guess whispering to your neighbor works a lot better. And how is the whiteboarding experience?
  - Karrot_Kream 4y ago
    A lot of Quest games can actually turn audio into mouth movements on an avatar. I play Walkabout Mini Golf with my friends a lot and it's incredible how natural the mouth movements seem to match my friends' speech. I'll turn to them complaining about par on a hole and I'll see them speak in response. The new Quest headsets are supposed to have some features for facial expression tracking for exactly this reason. But yeah, no doubt there's still a ways to go for the experience to be worthwhile.
  - onepointsixC 4y ago

onepointsixC 4y ago

>It's hard to focus on multiple things at once, and we're skeptical that the bureaucratic forces in play at a large company like Meta will allow them to do a good job at making their gaming platform also one that people actually want to work in. The problem with your assertion is that you over count how many multiple things Meta has to do. What will make for a very good gaming VR Headset will also be a very good professional and productivity headset. The key aspects which Mark Zuckerberg laid out personally in the recent VR Prototypes unveil pretty universally hit both targets. Comfortable light weight headsets with incredible fidelity is desirable for all VR applications. Not just gaming.

statop 4y ago
Yea… nothing I’ve seen from them is compelling. My bet is Mark is going to burn a LOT of money, fail to get mass adoption, cancel the project, and lay the design team off. But who knows! Maybe we’ll all be taking work meetings in MetaLife this time next year! Just make sure you login to your meeting 5 minutes early to preview the new season of BigBrother and score an extra 60 seconds of microphone mute time!
- onepointsixC 4y ago
  >Yea… nothing I’ve seen from them is compelling. From Meta or from SimulaVR? Because Meta has been selling one of the best VR Headsets for the money thus far. I'd really recommend checking out their VR Headsets announcement [1]. Maybe VR will never actually go anywhere software-wise, but it's clear that the team at Meta has a good understand of the problems of current headsets and what would be necessary to make a generational leap in immersiveness. I'm certain there will be markets for it. >My bet is Mark is going to burn a LOT of money, fail to get mass adoption, cancel the project, and lay the design team off. I don't think they're going to cancel it. It's very much a hail marry here. The Facebook phone was a massive flop and the cumulative result of failing to have their own hardware platform was Apple killing their mobile ads business. I think Meta will do everything in it's power to own it's own hardware so that whatever their business model is, no competitor could just kill it with a flip of a switch. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMpWH6vDZ8E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMpWH6vDZ8E

majormajor 4y ago

"We don't think they're competent enough to be a competitor" is a bad way to judge whether you're competing with someone. It's like Apple laughing at the IBM PC.

chaostheory 4y ago
Looking at the new videos related to the upcoming Quest Pro that will be announced next week, the simulavr guys are dead wrong. https://www.reddit.com/r/AR_MR_XR/comments/xwjzni/meta_quest_pro_mixed_reality_passthrough https://www.reddit.com/r/AR_MR_XR/comments/xwjzni/meta_quest...
- georgewsinger 4y ago
  What you're seeing: a Meta headset tethered to a laptop over WiFi running Immersed. What you're not seeing: a standalone VR headset running a VR Desktop OS natively with bleeding edge pixel density (i.e., like the Simula One). We understand that Meta has some cool tools in its app store which can be used to get a feel for VR computing. But analogously, you could also purchase word processors for early gaming consoles too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AtariWriter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AtariWriter Our view is that dedicated VR computing devices are what the market actually needs.
  - wahnfrieden 4y ago
    apple would agree
  - spiffytech 4y ago
    Does Simula's tethered option affect this calculus?
    - georgewsinger 4y ago
      A bit, but not much. Our tethered option is for people who want to connect to beefier hosts because they need the extra GPU power (or want to use our headset's high pixel density for gaming purposes). We've sold very few of them though. Our primary offering is our standalone unit.

MadcapJake 4y ago

"Do a good job" is different from intent to compete. Horizon Workrooms, keyboard passthrough, and multi-app support screams non-entertainment functionality. And that's just what's been released pre-Quest Pro...

tomxor 4y ago

> Consider that Atari tried to compete with office PCs in the early 80s with their 8-bit family, and failed I don't think that's very accurate. The Atari ST had a pretty good following compared to personal computers of the time much like the Amiga... The fact is that most computer companies from back then did not survive far beyond the decade but they had their time. So it's not really accurate to say they failed when Acorn, Amiga, Amstrad...etc, all "failed", in that they didn't produce more than a handful of unique and fairly incompatible computers with no clear future, but that had a market and sold with success in their time frame none the less.

antiterra 4y ago
I don’t think he meant the computers as a whole were unsuccessful, but the bid to enter the business sector was. The common consensus is they failed because Atari was so strongly associated with games. I assume there are possibly greater reasons, but it is true Tramiel and others tried the pivot and it failed.

urthor 4y ago

https://twitter.com/jasuminsui/status/1577867376522973185?t=JuDoMvkMkLu1x00W4FfnIA&s=19 https://twitter.com/jasuminsui/status/1577867376522973185?t=... I assume you've read?

georgewsinger 4y ago
I haven't read. Will check it out!

bgribble 4y ago

As a very nearsighted programmer suffering from increasing age-related farsightedness, I often fantasize about a VR headset that would allow me to comfortably focus (say 6 feet away while wearing contacts) on a huge virtual tmux session for coding. I don't know if this is even remotely a possibility but it sure would beat dealing with constant CSS (can't see s*t)

kanetw 4y ago
Prescription inserts (we're working with vendors on this) are possible, and the focus distance of our headset (and most headsets, I think) is in that region.
mncharity 4y ago
IIRC, Nreal Light is 2 m focus distance. Crisp 1080p. Weight/fit... I'd perhaps diy a hat or strap for long-duration use, depending on face shape. Reddit suggests newer Nreal Air is 4 m.

ynx 4y ago

As someone who used to work there, I would be significantly more afraid. VR there has never been exclusively about gaming nor has gaming been the overall goal of VR since their acquisition. The way they talked about it back in the day was, if I recall accurately, that they were focused on three pillars: "The metaverse", "The overlay", and "The future of work". Social presence, real-life AR metadata, and expanding the screens and capabilities of working professionals, respectively. The direction of their research and implementation has, at least to my knowledge, been oriented literally towards creating a new category of general purpose productivity devices and admitting as much in a very public blog post is a pretty big own-goal if the idea is to try to avoid the subpoena by distinguishing yourselves (assuming you're speaking on behalf of SimulaVR).