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I'm having trouble coming up with the right words to make my point. But, to me, this application says "my parents made me do a lot of shit" more than it says t

by treis 4y ago

I'm having trouble coming up with the right words to make my point. But, to me, this application says "my parents made me do a lot of shit" more than it says that this person is exceptional. What's this kid's resume if he's born in the hood to a single mom instead of a Boston suburb to an associate partner at IBM? IMHO it's sour grapes from someone that tried to game the system but didn't get the prize they wanted.

edflsafoiewq 4y ago
What's your point, anything you do that doesn't flow from some deep internal fire so powerful it overwhelms any external circumstance "doesn't count"?
- treis 4y ago
  My point is that "quality of parents" shouldn't be the way we pick the elite
  - z7 4y ago
    Why not extend this to attractiveness, general health, enviromental factors like air pollution, gender, quality of local libraries, height etc., all likely influencing an individual's success in life?
    - treis 4y ago
      Of course I don't think we should pick out elite based on these things either
  - edflsafoiewq 4y ago
    No they should be picked for "ability", and it's all the same whether that "ability" was inculcated by good parenting or not.
    - treis 4y ago
      The point is that two kids with equal ability can have dramatically different accomplishments based on things outside their control
fleetwoodsnack 4y ago
>I'm having trouble coming up with the right words to make my point. But, to me, this application says "my parents made me do a lot of shit" more than it says that this person is exceptional. What's this kid's resume if he's born in the hood to a single mom instead of a Boston suburb to an associate partner at IBM? Try: speculative, imaginary, and unsubstantiated by evidence. Stereotypical, if you’re feeling adventurous.
- treis 4y ago
  Yes, that's what we do when translating accomplishments to ability
  - fleetwoodsnack 4y ago
    Perhaps, but more germane here: it’s also being used by you to discredit real accomplishments with hypothetical ones. I’m not discounting that you could be right, just that you could be right in a totally contrived scenario.
    - treis 4y ago
      You're assuming your point by calling them "real accomplishments". But that's the whole debate. Is being an Eagle Scout a "real accomplishment" or is it a participation award? And if it's a participation award did the kid get it through his own initiative or because he was forced by his parents? The answer to that question is the whole debate. And this is not a "totally contrived" scenario. The guy is posting his kid's resume on some blog post about SAT scores in another state. That's very strong evidence as to his involvement and importance he placed on college admissions.
      - fleetwoodsnack 4y ago
        Eagle Scout is the highest rank in American scouting, and is achieved by less than 5% of those who pursue it. Eagle Scouts include U.S. Presidents, Judges, Astronauts, Generals, and technology Founders. Those who achieve it and pursue a career in the military are advanced to a higher rank and higher payscale upon enlistment in all branches of the armed services. https://www.baylorisr.org/wp-content/uploads/Boy-Scouts-Report.pdf https://www.baylorisr.org/wp-content/uploads/Boy-Scouts-Repo...
thwayunion 4y ago
It's a real shame that this guy posted his son's resume non-anonymously, but I have to agree. Aside from grades and AP scores, it's a lot of "showing up" dressed up as accomplishment. JV track explains itself, the debate stuff is the equivalent of getting third place in one track event at one regional meet, and Eagle Scout is impressive but IMO doesn't show anything that doing well in school doesn't already show. Everyone applying to CMU CS or Harvey Mudd has high GPAs, high standardized test scores, and lots of 4s and 5s on AP tests. So the extra curricular stuff really does matter, because there are way fewer seats than people with good grades and test scores. And in this applicant's case, the ECs just are not there. The applicants who are setting themselves apart via debate are consistently doing well at the best national tournaments in the most demanding and competitive formats for years; not getting 3rd place in Congressional at one regional tournament. The ones setting themselves apart with track are participating in Varsity at least a few years, doing well at State, and a likely courting at least D2 athletic scholarships. The ones who are setting themselves apart via scouting are going way beyond the minimum requirements for Eagle Scout. Also, Northeastern and Amherst have fantastic CS programs and getting into CS programs like those at Harvey Mudd or CMU is probably harder than getting into ivies these days.
- a2tech 4y ago
  I looked at some of those institutions SAT scores and his scores would have been very close to the median scores of them. IE he was just one application in a sea of very similar applications. Obviously he worked really hard and that is impressive, but clearly so did many other people.
- nluken 4y ago
  Absolutely agree with your point, and I'll add onto it from experience. > The ones setting themselves apart with track are participating in Varsity at least a few years, doing well at State, and a likely courting at least D2 athletic scholarships Sports (especially track and field) don't set you apart at all as an applicant for unless you're good enough to make the college's varsity team. That's the sole metric highly selective schools are using to assess athletic ability unless you have some extenuating circumstance that makes your participation in the sport especially meaningful.
commandlinefan 4y ago
> game the system Getting good grades is "gaming the system" now?
- treis 4y ago
  Of course? I'm struggling to imagine how someone could have gone through an American high school and think otherwise. But either way that's just one part of the resume. It's all the extra curriculars that look like blatant box checking without any real accomplishment.
lukas099 4y ago
> But, to me, this application says... To me, it says that a kid had ambition, intelligence, determination, and conscientiousness, but to each his own.

by treis 4y ago

edflsafoiewq 4y ago

What's your point, anything you do that doesn't flow from some deep internal fire so powerful it overwhelms any external circumstance "doesn't count"?

treis 4y ago
My point is that "quality of parents" shouldn't be the way we pick the elite
- z7 4y ago
  Why not extend this to attractiveness, general health, enviromental factors like air pollution, gender, quality of local libraries, height etc., all likely influencing an individual's success in life?
  - treis 4y ago
    Of course I don't think we should pick out elite based on these things either
- edflsafoiewq 4y ago
  No they should be picked for "ability", and it's all the same whether that "ability" was inculcated by good parenting or not.
  - treis 4y ago
    The point is that two kids with equal ability can have dramatically different accomplishments based on things outside their control

fleetwoodsnack 4y ago

>I'm having trouble coming up with the right words to make my point. But, to me, this application says "my parents made me do a lot of shit" more than it says that this person is exceptional. What's this kid's resume if he's born in the hood to a single mom instead of a Boston suburb to an associate partner at IBM? Try: speculative, imaginary, and unsubstantiated by evidence. Stereotypical, if you’re feeling adventurous.

treis 4y ago
Yes, that's what we do when translating accomplishments to ability
- fleetwoodsnack 4y ago
  Perhaps, but more germane here: it’s also being used by you to discredit real accomplishments with hypothetical ones. I’m not discounting that you could be right, just that you could be right in a totally contrived scenario.
  - treis 4y ago
    You're assuming your point by calling them "real accomplishments". But that's the whole debate. Is being an Eagle Scout a "real accomplishment" or is it a participation award? And if it's a participation award did the kid get it through his own initiative or because he was forced by his parents? The answer to that question is the whole debate. And this is not a "totally contrived" scenario. The guy is posting his kid's resume on some blog post about SAT scores in another state. That's very strong evidence as to his involvement and importance he placed on college admissions.
    - fleetwoodsnack 4y ago
      Eagle Scout is the highest rank in American scouting, and is achieved by less than 5% of those who pursue it. Eagle Scouts include U.S. Presidents, Judges, Astronauts, Generals, and technology Founders. Those who achieve it and pursue a career in the military are advanced to a higher rank and higher payscale upon enlistment in all branches of the armed services. https://www.baylorisr.org/wp-content/uploads/Boy-Scouts-Report.pdf https://www.baylorisr.org/wp-content/uploads/Boy-Scouts-Repo...

thwayunion 4y ago

It's a real shame that this guy posted his son's resume non-anonymously, but I have to agree. Aside from grades and AP scores, it's a lot of "showing up" dressed up as accomplishment. JV track explains itself, the debate stuff is the equivalent of getting third place in one track event at one regional meet, and Eagle Scout is impressive but IMO doesn't show anything that doing well in school doesn't already show. Everyone applying to CMU CS or Harvey Mudd has high GPAs, high standardized test scores, and lots of 4s and 5s on AP tests. So the extra curricular stuff really does matter, because there are way fewer seats than people with good grades and test scores. And in this applicant's case, the ECs just are not there. The applicants who are setting themselves apart via debate are consistently doing well at the best national tournaments in the most demanding and competitive formats for years; not getting 3rd place in Congressional at one regional tournament. The ones setting themselves apart with track are participating in Varsity at least a few years, doing well at State, and a likely courting at least D2 athletic scholarships. The ones who are setting themselves apart via scouting are going way beyond the minimum requirements for Eagle Scout. Also, Northeastern and Amherst have fantastic CS programs and getting into CS programs like those at Harvey Mudd or CMU is probably harder than getting into ivies these days.

a2tech 4y ago
I looked at some of those institutions SAT scores and his scores would have been very close to the median scores of them. IE he was just one application in a sea of very similar applications. Obviously he worked really hard and that is impressive, but clearly so did many other people.
nluken 4y ago
Absolutely agree with your point, and I'll add onto it from experience. > The ones setting themselves apart with track are participating in Varsity at least a few years, doing well at State, and a likely courting at least D2 athletic scholarships Sports (especially track and field) don't set you apart at all as an applicant for unless you're good enough to make the college's varsity team. That's the sole metric highly selective schools are using to assess athletic ability unless you have some extenuating circumstance that makes your participation in the sport especially meaningful.

commandlinefan 4y ago

> game the system Getting good grades is "gaming the system" now?

treis 4y ago
Of course? I'm struggling to imagine how someone could have gone through an American high school and think otherwise. But either way that's just one part of the resume. It's all the extra curriculars that look like blatant box checking without any real accomplishment.

lukas099 4y ago

> But, to me, this application says... To me, it says that a kid had ambition, intelligence, determination, and conscientiousness, but to each his own.