8 ms·

This anecdote is really something https://infoproc.blogspot.com/2022/10/sat-score-distributions-in-michigan.html#comment-6004522520 https://infoproc.blogspot.c

This anecdote is really something https://infoproc.blogspot.com/2022/10/sat-score-distributions-in-michigan.html#comment-6004522520 https://infoproc.blogspot.com/2022/10/sat-score-distribution...

hker999 4y ago
The Harvard university president has stated many times that admissions are weighted and if you are Asian, will have a much harder time getting accepted. It seems racism is accepted in academia, when it affects a demographic you deem 'problematic'
- lo_zamoyski 4y ago
  The least conspiratorial explanation is the use of racial quotas.
- jonahbenton 4y ago
  As a NYC public school parent now with kids in college, who sees mono-white, mono-asian and mono-black school cultures (all 3 of which NYC unfortunately has lots of) as abhorrent, there is nothing wrong with not wanting a mono-culture in a community. (Go ahead. Downvote. It does wonders to change my mind lol).
  - arolihas 4y ago
    Why is that abhorrent to you?
    - adamsmith143 4y ago
      The real world is not a monoculture so why would you want your child to socialize in one?
      - arolihas 4y ago
        A lot of the real world is a "monoculture". Just because a majority of people look similar doesn't mean they all share similar ideologies, experiences, and values necessarily. Race is merely a social construct, and the Asian category covers several unique nationalities and cultures. Black and white are similarly ludicrously diverse. And these are young adults who should be bright enough to seek out diverse experiences and places if it suits them. If Harvard really cared about not being a monoculture they would look at their legacy admissions.
      - dahfizz 4y ago
        "abhorrent" is much much stronger than "suboptimal for socialization skills". Besides, every other country in the world gets to have its own cultural identity. The "real world" is very much a collection of monocultures. Only in America is it considered bad to have a cultural identity.
      - ryan93 4y ago
        IF that is what harvard is doing why do they STRONGLY prefer black immigrants over descendants of slavery.
      - Gareth321 4y ago
        > The real world is not a monoculture Here you use the term "monoculture." You appear to be using culture and race interchangeably. Clearly they are not the same. Are you referring to monoculture or monorace?
      - googlryas 4y ago
        "Asian" isn't a culture. Hell, even "Chinese" isn't a culture. China recognizes 55 ethnic minority groups, plus the Han majority. I'm sure if you put one person from each group into a classroom, you might say "They're all Chinese. Monoculture!", but it couldn't be further from the truth.
  - alex_sf 4y ago
    Sure, it's not ideal. Is the solution to have different standards for different groups based solely on skin color or self-identification?
    - socialismisok 4y ago
      It reasonably could be, if you are trying to undo systemic disadvantages that different groups have. You have to make a conscious choice to accept some adjustments higher if the foundation is systematically unfair. It might feel unfair to the folks who benefit from systematic advantages early.
      - prottog 4y ago
        You're arguing that past discrimination justifies present discrimination, and that past discrimination is in fact solely or majorly responsible for present disparities in outcomes. I can't see a world in which these positions are provable in a meaningful manner and not devolve society into a bitter, recriminatory cesspit, especially when it means that some people will in fact be hurt by present discrimination.
        socialismisok 4y ago
        Redlining is provable and had a clear outcome on income. It ended only very recently. And yeah, fixing that is going to cost some folks. Good news, we could figure out who benefitted or even just tax the very wealthy to get it fixed.
  - dahfizz 4y ago
    Why? Why does skin color == culture, and why is "mono-culture" abhorrent? Personally, I find treating people like trading cards and trying to "collect them all" is much more abhorrent.
- hotpotamus 4y ago
  I see this brought up a lot and it always makes me wonder - what is the "correct" number of black people who should be admitted to Harvard? Like if you removed any racial consideration, what would be the results?
  - glerk 4y ago
    The correct number of X group who should be admitted is the number of individuals in X group who meet the academic standard to be admitted. How about we stop giving those arbitrary buckets so much importance and treat everyone like individuals?
    - hotpotamus 4y ago
      Yes, and I wonder what the racial composition of such a standard would be.
      - glerk 4y ago
        Take a look at the table in the linked post and you might get an idea. The real question is why are you so interested in these buckets? Why are you trying to impose them on the rest of us?
        hotpotamus 4y ago
        I don't find the table all that helpful. I don't know the exact numbers, but given the number of black kids in the country, and the limited number of seats at Harvard, couldn't you construct a class of nothing but black students from the top SAT bracket and still have to deny most of them? As far as why I'm interested in these buckets - it's because this seems to be a very pressing matter of national concern - isn't there a supreme court case regarding this issue on the docket now?
        glerk 4y ago
        > couldn't you construct a class of nothing but black students from the top SAT bracket and still have to deny most of them? You could do that, but if we disregard race as a factor and use a completely unbiased approach (example: simply select the highest scores and roll a dice in case of a tie), it is easy to see what the distribution would look like based on that table.
- glerk 4y ago
  This is the subject of a current litigation. Hopefully the Supreme Court comes through and puts an end to this clown show.
- googlryas 4y ago
  Why don't Asians just decline to self identify? Are admissions looking at names or something and saying "yup, this is an Asian"?
user2352 4y ago
As someone with East Asian ancestry in North America, you quickly learn that hard work will only rarely help you find opportunities with institutions that have a huge demand of qualified applicants but not enough seats. This includes universities, high-prestige schools like medical schools, and a lot of creative industries (mentorship opportunities and scholarships just aren't there for you). This is unfair, but it's difficult to discuss this openly non-Asian people due to a lot of skepticism about disadvantages. But the nice thing is that the private sector truly doesn't care as much. So long as you can help make a company money, they will be eager to hire you. This includes FAAMG, Jane Street, and other companies - I personally know East Asian friends who had no difficulty working there, whereas others with similar or stronger work ethics faced a far more uphill battle getting into medical school. There is a lot of room for success at the most pragmatic and practical organizations, and there are plenty of other applicants for people doing do-good work that directly benefits society (hence the rejections despite hard work). If you really still want to contribute, effective altruism via donations to effective charities is still an option, along with entrepreneurship for good via founding your own company.
- arolihas 4y ago
  Private sector is better but it isn't some meritocratic utopia. There is a lot of nepotism and elitism in the upper echelon.
- vxNsr 4y ago
  I’ve got a friend applying to med schools, he’s a little older (late 20s vs early 20s) so he took the spray and pray approach and applied to 60 MD and DO schools. He said by and large he’s the only or one of ~3 non-minorities in any of the MD group interviews, additionally Asians aren’t well represented there either. DO group interviews on the other hand are mostly white/asain.
  - throwaway6734 4y ago
    Do?
    - 4y ago
armchairhacker 4y ago
The kid got accepted to UMass Amherst and Northeastern University. Those colleges are really highly-rated for CS, and Northeastern in particular has recently become really selective. The college rejections are weird, yes, but I don’t feel bad for him
- user2352 4y ago
  With life experience and age, you really appreciate the opportunities like UMass Amherst and Northeastern for CS. But if you're a high school senior, it's really common that you don't really realize that in the moment, and feel hugely demotivated or even end up depressed at the start of university. A lot of these people spend hours a week studying for the SATs and courses with the dream and imagination of getting into an Ivy League. You could say it's a misplaced effort, that these kids should lower expectations, and that these people should be happy with the opportunities they have, and there's merit. But in the moment, it's a huge blow to feel like hard work just won't pay off, and it certainly caused depression among a few people I knew. This can be mitigated by good mentorship and parenting, but not all people end up with good mentors, and parents who didn't experience the process might not understand it either.
  - the_only_law 4y ago
    > With life experience and age, you really appreciate the opportunities like UMass Amherst and Northeastern for CS Unfortunately that point it’s a pain in the ass to go back.
  - thehappypm 4y ago
    UMass Amherst is where I hope my children want to go. It’s a prestigious school by all means, and it’s a beautiful campus-oriented life not too far from civilization. Plus in state tuition. I went to a prestigious private school and don’t think it’s really better than a flagship state school.
- arolihas 4y ago
  Yeah, an Eagle Scout who did debate and very well academically going to a pretty good public school for computer science isn't some travesty. I am a little surprised at some of the results but I guess admissions have become more competitive over the past decade
adamsmith143 4y ago
Kind of useless in isolation. Who knows how competitive the CS classes are at the places they were rejected. I mean CS is probably the most competitive of any Major currently and they were rejected from arguably the top undergrad programs in the world. Out of state students are also at a disadvantage so that didn't help their case. Also seemed to lack any CS related extra curriculars, when they're applying against kids who won IOC's or have been building software since they were 12. Probably would have done fine applying to USC, Duke, JHU and other elite privates or in any other major.
fleetwoodsnack 4y ago
That stood out to me too. For all the self-appointed power that higher education institutions have given themselves to balance the proverbial scales of justice, I wonder if they ever take the time to consider the moral hazards of their decision making. Will the presidents, chancellors, board of governors, or deans of these institutions ever have to compete for these seats? Obviously no, and their own children will likely benefit in some form, whether it is legacy status or academic nepotism/networking, from their parents’ existing positions of power. So on whom does the burden of balancing the scales, not in theory but in practice, fall? Not white students at the nation’s elite schools, whose enrollment numbers even after various forms of affirmative action have been implemented have remained steady. Not black, latino/a/x, or Native American students whose enrollment numbers have benefited from targeted recruitment. Not international students, whose full-tuition payments have ensured their enrollment numbers have only increased with the decline of public funding (in the case of public institutions) and budgetary restructuring (in the case of private institutions). From a racial dimension, the primary group paying for higher education’s experiments in educational racial composition have primarily been Asian-American students, among whom there are prospective students (as we can see in the linked comment) with top-percentile scores in their respective areas of study, high-level achievement in non-academic pursuits, and a widely dispersed range of target schools. For all the moral certainty that higher education likes to presume, they have a dumbfounding lack of self-awareness when it comes to the moral hazard of making others pay for the consequences of their self-appointed mission. This is, of course, assuming they aren’t fully aware and satisfied with the results they’ve produced.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
  It is actually a fascinating study and I wonder why the results were not studied closer. If anything, the approach that it seemingly disadvantaged asian applicants and benefited black applicants had the opposite effect due to cultural norms, which only forced asian parents to, apparently, force their kids to study even harder. Full disclosure. I am mostly done with affirmative action. Standardized testing all the way. It is not perfect, but its better than 'whose ancestors suffered the most recently'. Otherwise we will continue to see a steady degradation akin to students voting a chemistry out for tough grades ( recent news that is making rounds on social media ).
green-eclipse 4y ago
That comment is wild, and as such -- remember, don't believe everything you read on the internet. Who knows if this is accurate or not. Disinformation campaigns and anger-boosting campaigns (aimed at both sides of the ideological aisle) from all corners of the internet are very sophisticated these days.
treis 4y ago
I'm having trouble coming up with the right words to make my point. But, to me, this application says "my parents made me do a lot of shit" more than it says that this person is exceptional. What's this kid's resume if he's born in the hood to a single mom instead of a Boston suburb to an associate partner at IBM? IMHO it's sour grapes from someone that tried to game the system but didn't get the prize they wanted.
- edflsafoiewq 4y ago
  What's your point, anything you do that doesn't flow from some deep internal fire so powerful it overwhelms any external circumstance "doesn't count"?
  - treis 4y ago
    My point is that "quality of parents" shouldn't be the way we pick the elite
    - z7 4y ago
      Why not extend this to attractiveness, general health, enviromental factors like air pollution, gender, quality of local libraries, height etc., all likely influencing an individual's success in life?
      - treis 4y ago
        Of course I don't think we should pick out elite based on these things either
    - edflsafoiewq 4y ago
      No they should be picked for "ability", and it's all the same whether that "ability" was inculcated by good parenting or not.
      - treis 4y ago
        The point is that two kids with equal ability can have dramatically different accomplishments based on things outside their control
a2tech 4y ago
He applied for Computer Science, so I looked at the University of Michigan's Engineering School SAT scores, and he was just a bit over the median score for the engineering school. Since admissions at these schools is slammed with applications its not unreasonable that he just didn't get in because he was in an ocean of similar applications.
- prottog 4y ago
  Would it not be fair to look at the median score for different racial groups, since we know that many universities do in fact discriminate on the basis of race in admissions?
  - a2tech 4y ago
    In Michigan publicly funded institutions are no longer allowed to use race as a factor.
    - gnicholas 4y ago
      Same in California, but I nonetheless heard a dean from UC Berkeley talking about how they "push the envelope" in terms of legality. It's easy to accomplish via a "holistic assessments".
WORMS_EAT_WORMS 4y ago
What if he just checked White vs Asian American. Do colleges even check that? Probably lots of fraud the other direction. E.g.: A white person claiming to be Native American. Colleges definitely look to the other way a bit to hit metrics / numbers, but what about the other direction?
nnm 4y ago
The kids should really also apply to international schools.
raunak 4y ago
I'm a current sophomore at Harvard, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. But those ECs and stats really aren't impressive enough to even qualify him for admission at any Ivy or T20. UIUC and UT Austin I agree, little surprising, but again, the CS program is very competitive, and it doesn't surprise me he didn't get in. Stats are irrelevant for Asians - if you have a 1500+ you're considered "good", you can't gain anything by having a 1580 vs. a 1520 for example. It really does come down to your essays, extracurriculars, and overall 'package'. Which I genuinely believe is the most fair way to accept folks into college.
- downvoteme1 4y ago
  Is it 1500 for everybody or 1500 for Asians, 1400 for whites, 1300 for African Americans and so on. Just curious?

This anecdote is really something https://infoproc.blogspot.com/2022/10/sat-score-distributions-in-michigan.html#comment-6004522520 https://infoproc.blogspot.com/2022/10/sat-score-distribution...

hker999 4y ago

The Harvard university president has stated many times that admissions are weighted and if you are Asian, will have a much harder time getting accepted. It seems racism is accepted in academia, when it affects a demographic you deem 'problematic'

lo_zamoyski 4y ago
The least conspiratorial explanation is the use of racial quotas.
jonahbenton 4y ago
As a NYC public school parent now with kids in college, who sees mono-white, mono-asian and mono-black school cultures (all 3 of which NYC unfortunately has lots of) as abhorrent, there is nothing wrong with not wanting a mono-culture in a community. (Go ahead. Downvote. It does wonders to change my mind lol).
- arolihas 4y ago
  Why is that abhorrent to you?
  - adamsmith143 4y ago
    The real world is not a monoculture so why would you want your child to socialize in one?
    - arolihas 4y ago
      A lot of the real world is a "monoculture". Just because a majority of people look similar doesn't mean they all share similar ideologies, experiences, and values necessarily. Race is merely a social construct, and the Asian category covers several unique nationalities and cultures. Black and white are similarly ludicrously diverse. And these are young adults who should be bright enough to seek out diverse experiences and places if it suits them. If Harvard really cared about not being a monoculture they would look at their legacy admissions.
    - dahfizz 4y ago
      "abhorrent" is much much stronger than "suboptimal for socialization skills". Besides, every other country in the world gets to have its own cultural identity. The "real world" is very much a collection of monocultures. Only in America is it considered bad to have a cultural identity.
    - ryan93 4y ago
      IF that is what harvard is doing why do they STRONGLY prefer black immigrants over descendants of slavery.
    - Gareth321 4y ago
      > The real world is not a monoculture Here you use the term "monoculture." You appear to be using culture and race interchangeably. Clearly they are not the same. Are you referring to monoculture or monorace?
    - googlryas 4y ago
      "Asian" isn't a culture. Hell, even "Chinese" isn't a culture. China recognizes 55 ethnic minority groups, plus the Han majority. I'm sure if you put one person from each group into a classroom, you might say "They're all Chinese. Monoculture!", but it couldn't be further from the truth.
- alex_sf 4y ago
  Sure, it's not ideal. Is the solution to have different standards for different groups based solely on skin color or self-identification?
  - socialismisok 4y ago
    It reasonably could be, if you are trying to undo systemic disadvantages that different groups have. You have to make a conscious choice to accept some adjustments higher if the foundation is systematically unfair. It might feel unfair to the folks who benefit from systematic advantages early.
    - prottog 4y ago
      You're arguing that past discrimination justifies present discrimination, and that past discrimination is in fact solely or majorly responsible for present disparities in outcomes. I can't see a world in which these positions are provable in a meaningful manner and not devolve society into a bitter, recriminatory cesspit, especially when it means that some people will in fact be hurt by present discrimination.
      - socialismisok 4y ago
        Redlining is provable and had a clear outcome on income. It ended only very recently. And yeah, fixing that is going to cost some folks. Good news, we could figure out who benefitted or even just tax the very wealthy to get it fixed.
- dahfizz 4y ago
  Why? Why does skin color == culture, and why is "mono-culture" abhorrent? Personally, I find treating people like trading cards and trying to "collect them all" is much more abhorrent.
hotpotamus 4y ago
I see this brought up a lot and it always makes me wonder - what is the "correct" number of black people who should be admitted to Harvard? Like if you removed any racial consideration, what would be the results?
- glerk 4y ago
  The correct number of X group who should be admitted is the number of individuals in X group who meet the academic standard to be admitted. How about we stop giving those arbitrary buckets so much importance and treat everyone like individuals?
  - hotpotamus 4y ago
    Yes, and I wonder what the racial composition of such a standard would be.
    - glerk 4y ago
      Take a look at the table in the linked post and you might get an idea. The real question is why are you so interested in these buckets? Why are you trying to impose them on the rest of us?
      - hotpotamus 4y ago
        I don't find the table all that helpful. I don't know the exact numbers, but given the number of black kids in the country, and the limited number of seats at Harvard, couldn't you construct a class of nothing but black students from the top SAT bracket and still have to deny most of them? As far as why I'm interested in these buckets - it's because this seems to be a very pressing matter of national concern - isn't there a supreme court case regarding this issue on the docket now?
        glerk 4y ago
        > couldn't you construct a class of nothing but black students from the top SAT bracket and still have to deny most of them? You could do that, but if we disregard race as a factor and use a completely unbiased approach (example: simply select the highest scores and roll a dice in case of a tie), it is easy to see what the distribution would look like based on that table.
glerk 4y ago
This is the subject of a current litigation. Hopefully the Supreme Court comes through and puts an end to this clown show.
googlryas 4y ago
Why don't Asians just decline to self identify? Are admissions looking at names or something and saying "yup, this is an Asian"?

user2352 4y ago

As someone with East Asian ancestry in North America, you quickly learn that hard work will only rarely help you find opportunities with institutions that have a huge demand of qualified applicants but not enough seats. This includes universities, high-prestige schools like medical schools, and a lot of creative industries (mentorship opportunities and scholarships just aren't there for you). This is unfair, but it's difficult to discuss this openly non-Asian people due to a lot of skepticism about disadvantages. But the nice thing is that the private sector truly doesn't care as much. So long as you can help make a company money, they will be eager to hire you. This includes FAAMG, Jane Street, and other companies - I personally know East Asian friends who had no difficulty working there, whereas others with similar or stronger work ethics faced a far more uphill battle getting into medical school. There is a lot of room for success at the most pragmatic and practical organizations, and there are plenty of other applicants for people doing do-good work that directly benefits society (hence the rejections despite hard work). If you really still want to contribute, effective altruism via donations to effective charities is still an option, along with entrepreneurship for good via founding your own company.

arolihas 4y ago
Private sector is better but it isn't some meritocratic utopia. There is a lot of nepotism and elitism in the upper echelon.
vxNsr 4y ago
I’ve got a friend applying to med schools, he’s a little older (late 20s vs early 20s) so he took the spray and pray approach and applied to 60 MD and DO schools. He said by and large he’s the only or one of ~3 non-minorities in any of the MD group interviews, additionally Asians aren’t well represented there either. DO group interviews on the other hand are mostly white/asain.
- throwaway6734 4y ago
  Do?
  - 4y ago

armchairhacker 4y ago

The kid got accepted to UMass Amherst and Northeastern University. Those colleges are really highly-rated for CS, and Northeastern in particular has recently become really selective. The college rejections are weird, yes, but I don’t feel bad for him

user2352 4y ago
With life experience and age, you really appreciate the opportunities like UMass Amherst and Northeastern for CS. But if you're a high school senior, it's really common that you don't really realize that in the moment, and feel hugely demotivated or even end up depressed at the start of university. A lot of these people spend hours a week studying for the SATs and courses with the dream and imagination of getting into an Ivy League. You could say it's a misplaced effort, that these kids should lower expectations, and that these people should be happy with the opportunities they have, and there's merit. But in the moment, it's a huge blow to feel like hard work just won't pay off, and it certainly caused depression among a few people I knew. This can be mitigated by good mentorship and parenting, but not all people end up with good mentors, and parents who didn't experience the process might not understand it either.
- the_only_law 4y ago
  > With life experience and age, you really appreciate the opportunities like UMass Amherst and Northeastern for CS Unfortunately that point it’s a pain in the ass to go back.
- thehappypm 4y ago
  UMass Amherst is where I hope my children want to go. It’s a prestigious school by all means, and it’s a beautiful campus-oriented life not too far from civilization. Plus in state tuition. I went to a prestigious private school and don’t think it’s really better than a flagship state school.
arolihas 4y ago
Yeah, an Eagle Scout who did debate and very well academically going to a pretty good public school for computer science isn't some travesty. I am a little surprised at some of the results but I guess admissions have become more competitive over the past decade

adamsmith143 4y ago

Kind of useless in isolation. Who knows how competitive the CS classes are at the places they were rejected. I mean CS is probably the most competitive of any Major currently and they were rejected from arguably the top undergrad programs in the world. Out of state students are also at a disadvantage so that didn't help their case. Also seemed to lack any CS related extra curriculars, when they're applying against kids who won IOC's or have been building software since they were 12. Probably would have done fine applying to USC, Duke, JHU and other elite privates or in any other major.

fleetwoodsnack 4y ago

That stood out to me too. For all the self-appointed power that higher education institutions have given themselves to balance the proverbial scales of justice, I wonder if they ever take the time to consider the moral hazards of their decision making. Will the presidents, chancellors, board of governors, or deans of these institutions ever have to compete for these seats? Obviously no, and their own children will likely benefit in some form, whether it is legacy status or academic nepotism/networking, from their parents’ existing positions of power. So on whom does the burden of balancing the scales, not in theory but in practice, fall? Not white students at the nation’s elite schools, whose enrollment numbers even after various forms of affirmative action have been implemented have remained steady. Not black, latino/a/x, or Native American students whose enrollment numbers have benefited from targeted recruitment. Not international students, whose full-tuition payments have ensured their enrollment numbers have only increased with the decline of public funding (in the case of public institutions) and budgetary restructuring (in the case of private institutions). From a racial dimension, the primary group paying for higher education’s experiments in educational racial composition have primarily been Asian-American students, among whom there are prospective students (as we can see in the linked comment) with top-percentile scores in their respective areas of study, high-level achievement in non-academic pursuits, and a widely dispersed range of target schools. For all the moral certainty that higher education likes to presume, they have a dumbfounding lack of self-awareness when it comes to the moral hazard of making others pay for the consequences of their self-appointed mission. This is, of course, assuming they aren’t fully aware and satisfied with the results they’ve produced.

A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
It is actually a fascinating study and I wonder why the results were not studied closer. If anything, the approach that it seemingly disadvantaged asian applicants and benefited black applicants had the opposite effect due to cultural norms, which only forced asian parents to, apparently, force their kids to study even harder. Full disclosure. I am mostly done with affirmative action. Standardized testing all the way. It is not perfect, but its better than 'whose ancestors suffered the most recently'. Otherwise we will continue to see a steady degradation akin to students voting a chemistry out for tough grades ( recent news that is making rounds on social media ).

green-eclipse 4y ago

That comment is wild, and as such -- remember, don't believe everything you read on the internet. Who knows if this is accurate or not. Disinformation campaigns and anger-boosting campaigns (aimed at both sides of the ideological aisle) from all corners of the internet are very sophisticated these days.

treis 4y ago

I'm having trouble coming up with the right words to make my point. But, to me, this application says "my parents made me do a lot of shit" more than it says that this person is exceptional. What's this kid's resume if he's born in the hood to a single mom instead of a Boston suburb to an associate partner at IBM? IMHO it's sour grapes from someone that tried to game the system but didn't get the prize they wanted.

edflsafoiewq 4y ago
What's your point, anything you do that doesn't flow from some deep internal fire so powerful it overwhelms any external circumstance "doesn't count"?
- treis 4y ago
  My point is that "quality of parents" shouldn't be the way we pick the elite
  - z7 4y ago
    Why not extend this to attractiveness, general health, enviromental factors like air pollution, gender, quality of local libraries, height etc., all likely influencing an individual's success in life?
    - treis 4y ago
      Of course I don't think we should pick out elite based on these things either
  - edflsafoiewq 4y ago
    No they should be picked for "ability", and it's all the same whether that "ability" was inculcated by good parenting or not.
    - treis 4y ago
      The point is that two kids with equal ability can have dramatically different accomplishments based on things outside their control

a2tech 4y ago

He applied for Computer Science, so I looked at the University of Michigan's Engineering School SAT scores, and he was just a bit over the median score for the engineering school. Since admissions at these schools is slammed with applications its not unreasonable that he just didn't get in because he was in an ocean of similar applications.

prottog 4y ago
Would it not be fair to look at the median score for different racial groups, since we know that many universities do in fact discriminate on the basis of race in admissions?
- a2tech 4y ago
  In Michigan publicly funded institutions are no longer allowed to use race as a factor.
  - gnicholas 4y ago
    Same in California, but I nonetheless heard a dean from UC Berkeley talking about how they "push the envelope" in terms of legality. It's easy to accomplish via a "holistic assessments".

WORMS_EAT_WORMS 4y ago

What if he just checked White vs Asian American. Do colleges even check that? Probably lots of fraud the other direction. E.g.: A white person claiming to be Native American. Colleges definitely look to the other way a bit to hit metrics / numbers, but what about the other direction?

nnm 4y ago

The kids should really also apply to international schools.

raunak 4y ago

I'm a current sophomore at Harvard, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. But those ECs and stats really aren't impressive enough to even qualify him for admission at any Ivy or T20. UIUC and UT Austin I agree, little surprising, but again, the CS program is very competitive, and it doesn't surprise me he didn't get in. Stats are irrelevant for Asians - if you have a 1500+ you're considered "good", you can't gain anything by having a 1580 vs. a 1520 for example. It really does come down to your essays, extracurriculars, and overall 'package'. Which I genuinely believe is the most fair way to accept folks into college.

downvoteme1 4y ago
Is it 1500 for everybody or 1500 for Asians, 1400 for whites, 1300 for African Americans and so on. Just curious?