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I'm surprised so many people here at HN buys the 'Product Guy' crap. My opinion is even more radical than Aaron Harris'. I'm sick of guys that think they are

I'm surprised so many people here at HN buys the 'Product Guy' crap. My opinion is even more radical than Aaron Harris'. I'm sick of guys that think they are more important than developers because they use a suit and tie or master some extremely subjective skill while I sit all day and do actual tangible work. I will not give credibility to anybody to criticize my work if that person haven't been in my shoes. As a developer, the only product guy I would respect is the one that has once been a developer and that would have the skills to sit down and discuss my work from a technical point of view if that would ever be necessary. Otherwise I reserve myself the right to think that some of the decisions are stupid. Why wouldn't I? Paul Graham , Bill Gates, John Carmack, Joel Spolsky and many others were (are) programmers they didn't reach their status by 'knowing how to manage people'.

alexanderberman 15y ago
This misses the point of what a product manager actually does, though. A PM isn't there to criticize your work or even to manage developers - that's more the project manager's job (or perhaps a lead developer's). PM's at most companies translate customer feedback into concrete specs that devs can execute on. PMs usually do not have any authority over developers, but instead try to work alongside them. I really don't understand why devs hate on PMs - they exist to let devs focus on code. PMs create customer personas, user stories, UI/UX specs, and business reports, which are all things that the majority of devs don't want to have to deal with.
- nupark2 15y ago
  > I really don't understand why devs hate on PMs - they exist to let devs focus on code. PMs create customer personas, user stories, UI/UX specs, and business reports, which are all things that the majority of devs don't want to have to deal with. My issue with this is that most PMs do an exceptionally bad job of this. Understanding the user is a task as complex as developing the application, and it's something that is best suited to a dialog between an actual UX designer and the software engineers. Blindly implementing what the PM tells you to implement is an awful position to be in, and results in terrible UX and bored/annoyed engineers. The engineers and UX designers should be driving the product boat. The PM (if there is one) should be relaying business priorities, and relaying back the technical/design context necessary to choose those business priorities. If given the choice, I'd ditch a product manager every single time and replace them with: * A UX/UI designer. * Engineers interested in user experience * Lead engineering architects * A project manager to keep tabs on priorities and scheduling.
  - aspenblue 15y ago
    The UX designer is supposed to lead the drive towards superior user understanding, empathy in design through features that respect users. The developer is responsible for defining what is technically possible. The PM has to analyze the tradeoffs and negotiate a compromise that best suits the product, time available, and company objectives. When the three collaborate, you have ONE product team. No party is superior or can stand alone effectively.
  - olegious 15y ago
    Then who talks to the users and analyzes their feedback? Who determines the direction of your product, manages the executive team's expectations (plays politics) and makes the tough go/no go decisions on features or entire products? That's part of what a product person does.

alexanderberman 15y ago

This misses the point of what a product manager actually does, though. A PM isn't there to criticize your work or even to manage developers - that's more the project manager's job (or perhaps a lead developer's). PM's at most companies translate customer feedback into concrete specs that devs can execute on. PMs usually do not have any authority over developers, but instead try to work alongside them. I really don't understand why devs hate on PMs - they exist to let devs focus on code. PMs create customer personas, user stories, UI/UX specs, and business reports, which are all things that the majority of devs don't want to have to deal with.

nupark2 15y ago
> I really don't understand why devs hate on PMs - they exist to let devs focus on code. PMs create customer personas, user stories, UI/UX specs, and business reports, which are all things that the majority of devs don't want to have to deal with. My issue with this is that most PMs do an exceptionally bad job of this. Understanding the user is a task as complex as developing the application, and it's something that is best suited to a dialog between an actual UX designer and the software engineers. Blindly implementing what the PM tells you to implement is an awful position to be in, and results in terrible UX and bored/annoyed engineers. The engineers and UX designers should be driving the product boat. The PM (if there is one) should be relaying business priorities, and relaying back the technical/design context necessary to choose those business priorities. If given the choice, I'd ditch a product manager every single time and replace them with: * A UX/UI designer. * Engineers interested in user experience * Lead engineering architects * A project manager to keep tabs on priorities and scheduling.
- aspenblue 15y ago
  The UX designer is supposed to lead the drive towards superior user understanding, empathy in design through features that respect users. The developer is responsible for defining what is technically possible. The PM has to analyze the tradeoffs and negotiate a compromise that best suits the product, time available, and company objectives. When the three collaborate, you have ONE product team. No party is superior or can stand alone effectively.
- olegious 15y ago
  Then who talks to the users and analyzes their feedback? Who determines the direction of your product, manages the executive team's expectations (plays politics) and makes the tough go/no go decisions on features or entire products? That's part of what a product person does.