4 ms·

“Manage out” sounds suspiciously like “constructive dismissal” to me. Not only unethical but illegal to varying degrees across many jurisdictions. Could get pri

by rusk 4y ago

“Manage out” sounds suspiciously like “constructive dismissal” to me. Not only unethical but illegal to varying degrees across many jurisdictions. Could get pricey!

SilverBirch 4y ago
There's a massive difference between constructive dismissal and managing out. Managing out can often be as simple as a manager saying "Hey, your performance isn't great your not on course to get any bonus or raise this year" and the employee deciding "Fuck this, I'm off". Instead of in normal times, where you're trying to retain people and the conversation is often "Hey, you're making really good progress but there's just a few areas we need to work on which is why your compensation isn't quite where you would like it". There's a thousand reasons people stay or leave companies and just slightly adjusting how much you're working to keep people can often be the difference in the attrition rate.
- votepaunchy 4y ago
  Do I understand correctly, you are saying that 5-20% of your employees will quit after having a conversation simply noting that he or she will not be receiving a bonus or raise this year, or similar? That’s really quite tenuous, especially in this economy.
  - nullc 4y ago
    I believe with the way amazon comp in structured, not getting a bonus or a raise is actually a pay cut for many people, because they have vesting equity that is offset by front loaded cash bonuses. Even small pay cuts are pretty good at getting people to quit. (uh particularly talented ones that have many options ...)
  - joenot443 4y ago
    As a minor anecdote, I'm a FAANG SWE and if I was told I wouldn't be receiving a raise OR bonus this year, I'd absolutely start looking for other work. Most FAANG employees get recruiters reaching out daily, the thought of greener pastures is always on their mind.
    - oblio 4y ago
      Not if the well dries up because all those companies start firing thousands of people.
    - taylodl 4y ago
      Don't flatter yourself. We're all getting recruiters reaching out daily. They're mostly ignored because 99.999% of the time it's a lateral move - doing the same thing at a different place. Not interested. If anything, being a FAANG SWE puts you at a disadvantage for ever having stability. Financially risky startups would love to have you, but a lot of industry verticals simply won't take a look at you because they figure you wouldn't be interested or you're perceived as a flight risk. Thing is, if you plan to retire from this profession those are the kinds of jobs you're going to need.
      - joenot443 4y ago
        Unless you think it's flattering to have recruiters reaching out, I don't see when I was flattering myself. Based on your understanding, if other companies perceived me as being a flight risk because I'd worked in FAANG (?) I probably wouldn't be interested in them either, so it sounds like the system's working as expected.
    - ryandrake 4y ago
      I think it highly depends on the current economic environment. During the past 10+ years of bull market, suddenly losing your raise or bonus would immediately cause people to start looking for a new job. When a recession is on the horizon, with expected job market tightening, people are more likely to accept it, hold on to whatever job they have, and ride it out.
  - munchbunny 4y ago
    It’s not just that. It’s usually a combination of low bonuses/stock rewards, minimal raises, no promotions, uninteresting/less meaningful work, and less effort put into coaching them. Basically all of the stuff managers should be doing normally. If someone’s on the receiving end of all of those things they’ll usually leave sooner or later. Who wouldn’t want to?
    - twobitshifter 4y ago
      I suppose if you thought that the comp would return in the near future and the work environment was better than you'd find elsewhere.
    - nisegami 4y ago
      Definitely sounds like constructive dismissal to me, but IANAL.
      - rusk 4y ago
        It’s difficult to prove intent, but it’s also difficult to implement policy without a paper trail
  - __s 4y ago
    Bonus can represent 20 to 40 percent of one's total comp at these companies
  - SilverBirch 4y ago
    That was just one example of managing out that is clearly no where near "constructive dismissal". There are lots and lots of levers that management can pull to either reduce or increase attrition, and lots of them are about the employer choosing not to give extra support rather than taking away the basics. The normal attrition rate at an average company is already 10%, so pushing it a bit up isn't particularly difficult, especially at these big tech companies that traditionally have done a lot to try and keep people.
- marcus_holmes 4y ago
  Not giving a bonus can be grounds for a constructive dismissal claim (at least in the UK): https://employmenttribunal.claims/employment-law/bonus-disputes/ https://employmenttribunal.claims/employment-law/bonus-dispu...
  - filoleg 4y ago
    Well, if they didn't get a bonus for underperforming/not hitting the target, that's totally fine. Which is what is happening here, the target bar simply got raised. As for an employee quitting on their own accord before the bonus dispersal date (which they otherwise hit the bar to receive), every tech company I worked for or have friends working at, they have pretty fair systems for dealing with it. Generally, there is a cutoff date (which is usually about 4-6 months before the bonus disbursal/announcement date). If you leave at any point after that date, but before the bonus announcement/disbursal date, you still get your bonus in full. If you quit before the cutoff date, it gets prorated based on how many days you were an employee between the previous cut-off date and the upcoming one. There is also usually an extra nuance in math for people who just started working at the company and been there less than a year, but that detail is largely irrelevant. For a specific example, at MSFT, they had a cut-off date somewhere mid-june. The bonus got announced early september and disbursed in mid-second half of september. If you quit at any point after that date in June, you get your full bonus. If you quit exactly 2 months before the cutoff date, lets, say mid April, you get full_bonus*10/12.
- w0de0 4y ago
  Constructive dismissal issimpky convincing someone to leave without the burden to your cowardice and the company’s revenue that firing entails. You are playing semantic games - your described practice is not something different. It is dishonesty in the service of profit, the simplest type of corruption available. Euphemisms are always just euphemisms.

by rusk 4y ago

“Manage out” sounds suspiciously like “constructive dismissal” to me. Not only unethical but illegal to varying degrees across many jurisdictions. Could get pricey!

SilverBirch 4y ago

There's a massive difference between constructive dismissal and managing out. Managing out can often be as simple as a manager saying "Hey, your performance isn't great your not on course to get any bonus or raise this year" and the employee deciding "Fuck this, I'm off". Instead of in normal times, where you're trying to retain people and the conversation is often "Hey, you're making really good progress but there's just a few areas we need to work on which is why your compensation isn't quite where you would like it". There's a thousand reasons people stay or leave companies and just slightly adjusting how much you're working to keep people can often be the difference in the attrition rate.

votepaunchy 4y ago
Do I understand correctly, you are saying that 5-20% of your employees will quit after having a conversation simply noting that he or she will not be receiving a bonus or raise this year, or similar? That’s really quite tenuous, especially in this economy.
- nullc 4y ago
  I believe with the way amazon comp in structured, not getting a bonus or a raise is actually a pay cut for many people, because they have vesting equity that is offset by front loaded cash bonuses. Even small pay cuts are pretty good at getting people to quit. (uh particularly talented ones that have many options ...)
- joenot443 4y ago
  As a minor anecdote, I'm a FAANG SWE and if I was told I wouldn't be receiving a raise OR bonus this year, I'd absolutely start looking for other work. Most FAANG employees get recruiters reaching out daily, the thought of greener pastures is always on their mind.
  - oblio 4y ago
    Not if the well dries up because all those companies start firing thousands of people.
  - taylodl 4y ago
    Don't flatter yourself. We're all getting recruiters reaching out daily. They're mostly ignored because 99.999% of the time it's a lateral move - doing the same thing at a different place. Not interested. If anything, being a FAANG SWE puts you at a disadvantage for ever having stability. Financially risky startups would love to have you, but a lot of industry verticals simply won't take a look at you because they figure you wouldn't be interested or you're perceived as a flight risk. Thing is, if you plan to retire from this profession those are the kinds of jobs you're going to need.
    - joenot443 4y ago
      Unless you think it's flattering to have recruiters reaching out, I don't see when I was flattering myself. Based on your understanding, if other companies perceived me as being a flight risk because I'd worked in FAANG (?) I probably wouldn't be interested in them either, so it sounds like the system's working as expected.
  - ryandrake 4y ago
    I think it highly depends on the current economic environment. During the past 10+ years of bull market, suddenly losing your raise or bonus would immediately cause people to start looking for a new job. When a recession is on the horizon, with expected job market tightening, people are more likely to accept it, hold on to whatever job they have, and ride it out.
- munchbunny 4y ago
  It’s not just that. It’s usually a combination of low bonuses/stock rewards, minimal raises, no promotions, uninteresting/less meaningful work, and less effort put into coaching them. Basically all of the stuff managers should be doing normally. If someone’s on the receiving end of all of those things they’ll usually leave sooner or later. Who wouldn’t want to?
  - twobitshifter 4y ago
    I suppose if you thought that the comp would return in the near future and the work environment was better than you'd find elsewhere.
  - nisegami 4y ago
    Definitely sounds like constructive dismissal to me, but IANAL.
    - rusk 4y ago
      It’s difficult to prove intent, but it’s also difficult to implement policy without a paper trail
- __s 4y ago
  Bonus can represent 20 to 40 percent of one's total comp at these companies
- SilverBirch 4y ago
  That was just one example of managing out that is clearly no where near "constructive dismissal". There are lots and lots of levers that management can pull to either reduce or increase attrition, and lots of them are about the employer choosing not to give extra support rather than taking away the basics. The normal attrition rate at an average company is already 10%, so pushing it a bit up isn't particularly difficult, especially at these big tech companies that traditionally have done a lot to try and keep people.
marcus_holmes 4y ago
Not giving a bonus can be grounds for a constructive dismissal claim (at least in the UK): https://employmenttribunal.claims/employment-law/bonus-disputes/ https://employmenttribunal.claims/employment-law/bonus-dispu...
- filoleg 4y ago
  Well, if they didn't get a bonus for underperforming/not hitting the target, that's totally fine. Which is what is happening here, the target bar simply got raised. As for an employee quitting on their own accord before the bonus dispersal date (which they otherwise hit the bar to receive), every tech company I worked for or have friends working at, they have pretty fair systems for dealing with it. Generally, there is a cutoff date (which is usually about 4-6 months before the bonus disbursal/announcement date). If you leave at any point after that date, but before the bonus announcement/disbursal date, you still get your bonus in full. If you quit before the cutoff date, it gets prorated based on how many days you were an employee between the previous cut-off date and the upcoming one. There is also usually an extra nuance in math for people who just started working at the company and been there less than a year, but that detail is largely irrelevant. For a specific example, at MSFT, they had a cut-off date somewhere mid-june. The bonus got announced early september and disbursed in mid-second half of september. If you quit at any point after that date in June, you get your full bonus. If you quit exactly 2 months before the cutoff date, lets, say mid April, you get full_bonus*10/12.
w0de0 4y ago
Constructive dismissal issimpky convincing someone to leave without the burden to your cowardice and the company’s revenue that firing entails. You are playing semantic games - your described practice is not something different. It is dishonesty in the service of profit, the simplest type of corruption available. Euphemisms are always just euphemisms.