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amazon manager here: it's the same with us. our director gave told us to manage out more people this year to hit our revised headcount targets for next year.

amazon manager here: it's the same with us. our director gave told us to manage out more people this year to hit our revised headcount targets for next year. there are no layoffs, just larger-than-normal targets for managing out people. I talked with friends across various orgs and the targets seem to range between 10% to 25% for different teams (as opposed to 5% for normal years).

goldenManatee 4y ago
What is “manage out”? I haven’t heard this business double speak term.
tux2bsd 4y ago
- fortylove 4y ago
  Not a very nice comment. Definitely not a good way to phrase a comment meant at helping develop the best. FWIW, I think you used a comma instead of a period in your snipe. Would read better as: >Use proper capitalization or people won't believe "amazon manager here". Well... maybe they will. Or even: >Use proper capitalization or people won't believe "amazon manager here"... Well, maybe they will.
bushbaba 4y ago
Amazon is a big company. Need to preface that with what department. E.g. Alexa might be getting headcount trimmed. But other areas might see influx of investment. some Amazon teams had reduced PIP over the last year as well.
ohgodplsno 4y ago
"managing out" This is about the worst kind of doublespeak I have ever heard. It is actively malicious, the very thought of it brings images of purposeful abuse of employees. Seriously, just fire people.
- fortylove 4y ago
  AKA "unregretted attrition"
- louistsi 4y ago
  Doesn't always mean the same thing, "managing out" could mean firing, but it could also mean creating an inhospitable environment for work, like demotion, allocating drudge work, removing responsibilities, etc. To manage them out of the company "by their own choice", which is unfortunately just as bad if not worse.
  - bayraktar 4y ago
    It could also mean creating an inhospitable environment for work, like demotion, allocating drudge work, removing responsibilities, etc. Right - it's actually far worse than outright firing or laying off people. As in, genuinely harmful to people from a psychological (and hence physical) point of view. All so the company can save a few dollars, and hit certain quarterly targets a bit sooner. That's why there's a name for it (since long before the "quiet" meme), and legal precedents that are supposed to prevent companies from doing this (if any of them would take heed, which of course they won't): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_dismissal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_dismissal So the question to our friend thrwawayacc up above is -- OK, so this is what the director told you to do (and thanks for for sharing, BTW). But are you actually going to -- go through with what you were told to do? Are are you going to tell these people at the director level some version of: I understand your concerns, and the financial position that the company in. But at the end of the day, this isn't the right way to go about conducting what everyone can plainly see it as -- a layoff. Ultimately, if we go this route, it will be harmful to the company's reputation and long-term growth -- but more importantly, it will cause genuine harm to people who, until now, have been considered part of the Amazon Family. If Corporate insists on going this route, there's no way I can stop them of course. However, for my part, in my role, I will not be be able to participate in this extremely ill-advised course of action. This is your moment. So what's it going to be?
    - gamjQZnHT53AMa 4y ago
Double_a_92 4y ago
- protastus 4y ago
  Getting laid off and getting fired are different things.
  - seasox 4y ago
    The results are the same: your company has one employee less and you have one employer less.
    - onedognight 4y ago
      Big companies offer packages when laying people off, n weeks of full salary once you are gone with m weeks before of time to find a new role internally or externally. This does not happen when you are fired for cause.
      - wdb 4y ago
        Most people have a notice period so that’s normal. If you are ‘lucky’ you have garden leave so you can’t work/need to go to the office during this period
    - mclightning 4y ago
      That was the most convoluted admission of ignorance.
  - theginger 4y ago
    The law (in many places) gives protection to workers being laid off which it doesn't give to those being fired for inadequate performance. But when a company can change a target value and huge number of people are fired instead of being laid off people need to push back.
    - 4y ago
rusk 4y ago
“Manage out” sounds suspiciously like “constructive dismissal” to me. Not only unethical but illegal to varying degrees across many jurisdictions. Could get pricey!
- SilverBirch 4y ago
  There's a massive difference between constructive dismissal and managing out. Managing out can often be as simple as a manager saying "Hey, your performance isn't great your not on course to get any bonus or raise this year" and the employee deciding "Fuck this, I'm off". Instead of in normal times, where you're trying to retain people and the conversation is often "Hey, you're making really good progress but there's just a few areas we need to work on which is why your compensation isn't quite where you would like it". There's a thousand reasons people stay or leave companies and just slightly adjusting how much you're working to keep people can often be the difference in the attrition rate.
  - votepaunchy 4y ago
    Do I understand correctly, you are saying that 5-20% of your employees will quit after having a conversation simply noting that he or she will not be receiving a bonus or raise this year, or similar? That’s really quite tenuous, especially in this economy.
    - nullc 4y ago
      I believe with the way amazon comp in structured, not getting a bonus or a raise is actually a pay cut for many people, because they have vesting equity that is offset by front loaded cash bonuses. Even small pay cuts are pretty good at getting people to quit. (uh particularly talented ones that have many options ...)
    - joenot443 4y ago
      As a minor anecdote, I'm a FAANG SWE and if I was told I wouldn't be receiving a raise OR bonus this year, I'd absolutely start looking for other work. Most FAANG employees get recruiters reaching out daily, the thought of greener pastures is always on their mind.
l33tc0de 4y ago
Reading the Amazon horror stories on blind, I never reply to Amazon recruiters. Amazon's hire-to-fire strategy is now widely known
- hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago
  And given the inertia, it will take them a decade to realize how stupid this strategy is.
  - sngz 4y ago
    i think it will take jeff bezos dying or stepping down for it to even begin to change
- yolovoe 4y ago
  I work at AWS on EC2. It's really not bad. Very competent coworkers, technical leadership, plenty of principal engineers willing to help... Oncall's tough, and we definitely need more engineers but otherwise, you learn a lot
  - hnexamazon 4y ago
    I also work at AWS on EC2 and agree with this assessment. Amazon is large and the culture varies across organizations. I’ve worked at multiple big tech companies and AWS EC2, while not perfect, is the best place I’ve been part of.
  - masterof0 4y ago
    Lol, ex-Amazonian here, please cut the crap. EC2 is infamous for being one of the worst orgs in all AWS. Nasty stack ranking, abusing SDEs on visas, hiring L4s to fire them later, I personally known at least 3 folks that were let go from EC2 (Vpc) and then got into Google and Apple. Give me a break, there is a reason why recruiters have a hard time filling the headcount over there. And on top of that, ton of legacy code. EDIT: Added last sentence.
    - 4y ago
agluszak 4y ago
what does "managing out" mean?
- mclightning 4y ago
  >> make them quit
- spicyusername 4y ago
  Fire someone in such a way that you don't have to pay them severance or unemployment benefits. Very dystopian.
- TideAd 4y ago
  at Amazon it means surprising them with a PIP
afpx 4y ago
Yet, Amazon has over 13,000 open tech positions: https://www.amazon.jobs/en/landing_pages/tech-roles https://www.amazon.jobs/en/landing_pages/tech-roles
- kamaal 4y ago
  Surprise! In most large companies hiring and firing people are totally different, and rarely ever talk to each other. This is why in most companies if the top management wants to make a big layoff, they first let go the 'recruiting staff', and then work from there. In smaller layoffs, I'd imagine they'd continue to fill in open positions, while eliminating positions they think they don't need. There's also another thing where they want to fill in people where they think need for their newer/hot/important project which they think will give them better profits. And cut people/shut down projects which they think are not important/profitable.
- Bilal_io 4y ago
  I get contacted by Amazon recruiters very often. I either ignore them or say it's not the right time for me.
  - lostmsu 4y ago
    Just sent one to spam for putting "Urgent" on the email title and then outright lying or at least making misleading claim right in the first email.
  - alisonatwork 4y ago
    Two of these bozos contacted me on a personal address that I have never used for anything work-related, but does happen to be the email I have registered as my Amazon shopping account. When I wrote back and told them to stop spamming my personal address that had nothing to do with tech work, they said it wasn't their fault, because they had just bought the email list from someone else who had done the work to cross-reference my personal email address with my professional identity. As if that would give me any more trust in them as a company!? To me it just made me even more resolute never to work at any of those "big tech" outfits. None of them seem to care one bit about people's privacy.

goldenManatee 4y ago

What is “manage out”? I haven’t heard this business double speak term.

tux2bsd 4y ago

fortylove 4y ago
Not a very nice comment. Definitely not a good way to phrase a comment meant at helping develop the best. FWIW, I think you used a comma instead of a period in your snipe. Would read better as: >Use proper capitalization or people won't believe "amazon manager here". Well... maybe they will. Or even: >Use proper capitalization or people won't believe "amazon manager here"... Well, maybe they will.

bushbaba 4y ago

Amazon is a big company. Need to preface that with what department. E.g. Alexa might be getting headcount trimmed. But other areas might see influx of investment. some Amazon teams had reduced PIP over the last year as well.

ohgodplsno 4y ago

"managing out" This is about the worst kind of doublespeak I have ever heard. It is actively malicious, the very thought of it brings images of purposeful abuse of employees. Seriously, just fire people.

fortylove 4y ago
AKA "unregretted attrition"
louistsi 4y ago
Doesn't always mean the same thing, "managing out" could mean firing, but it could also mean creating an inhospitable environment for work, like demotion, allocating drudge work, removing responsibilities, etc. To manage them out of the company "by their own choice", which is unfortunately just as bad if not worse.
- bayraktar 4y ago
  It could also mean creating an inhospitable environment for work, like demotion, allocating drudge work, removing responsibilities, etc. Right - it's actually far worse than outright firing or laying off people. As in, genuinely harmful to people from a psychological (and hence physical) point of view. All so the company can save a few dollars, and hit certain quarterly targets a bit sooner. That's why there's a name for it (since long before the "quiet" meme), and legal precedents that are supposed to prevent companies from doing this (if any of them would take heed, which of course they won't): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_dismissal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_dismissal So the question to our friend thrwawayacc up above is -- OK, so this is what the director told you to do (and thanks for for sharing, BTW). But are you actually going to -- go through with what you were told to do? Are are you going to tell these people at the director level some version of: I understand your concerns, and the financial position that the company in. But at the end of the day, this isn't the right way to go about conducting what everyone can plainly see it as -- a layoff. Ultimately, if we go this route, it will be harmful to the company's reputation and long-term growth -- but more importantly, it will cause genuine harm to people who, until now, have been considered part of the Amazon Family. If Corporate insists on going this route, there's no way I can stop them of course. However, for my part, in my role, I will not be be able to participate in this extremely ill-advised course of action. This is your moment. So what's it going to be?
  - gamjQZnHT53AMa 4y ago

Double_a_92 4y ago

protastus 4y ago
Getting laid off and getting fired are different things.
- seasox 4y ago
  The results are the same: your company has one employee less and you have one employer less.
  - onedognight 4y ago
    Big companies offer packages when laying people off, n weeks of full salary once you are gone with m weeks before of time to find a new role internally or externally. This does not happen when you are fired for cause.
    - wdb 4y ago
      Most people have a notice period so that’s normal. If you are ‘lucky’ you have garden leave so you can’t work/need to go to the office during this period
  - mclightning 4y ago
    That was the most convoluted admission of ignorance.
- theginger 4y ago
  The law (in many places) gives protection to workers being laid off which it doesn't give to those being fired for inadequate performance. But when a company can change a target value and huge number of people are fired instead of being laid off people need to push back.
  - 4y ago

rusk 4y ago

“Manage out” sounds suspiciously like “constructive dismissal” to me. Not only unethical but illegal to varying degrees across many jurisdictions. Could get pricey!

SilverBirch 4y ago
There's a massive difference between constructive dismissal and managing out. Managing out can often be as simple as a manager saying "Hey, your performance isn't great your not on course to get any bonus or raise this year" and the employee deciding "Fuck this, I'm off". Instead of in normal times, where you're trying to retain people and the conversation is often "Hey, you're making really good progress but there's just a few areas we need to work on which is why your compensation isn't quite where you would like it". There's a thousand reasons people stay or leave companies and just slightly adjusting how much you're working to keep people can often be the difference in the attrition rate.
- votepaunchy 4y ago
  Do I understand correctly, you are saying that 5-20% of your employees will quit after having a conversation simply noting that he or she will not be receiving a bonus or raise this year, or similar? That’s really quite tenuous, especially in this economy.
  - nullc 4y ago
    I believe with the way amazon comp in structured, not getting a bonus or a raise is actually a pay cut for many people, because they have vesting equity that is offset by front loaded cash bonuses. Even small pay cuts are pretty good at getting people to quit. (uh particularly talented ones that have many options ...)
  - joenot443 4y ago
    As a minor anecdote, I'm a FAANG SWE and if I was told I wouldn't be receiving a raise OR bonus this year, I'd absolutely start looking for other work. Most FAANG employees get recruiters reaching out daily, the thought of greener pastures is always on their mind.

l33tc0de 4y ago

Reading the Amazon horror stories on blind, I never reply to Amazon recruiters. Amazon's hire-to-fire strategy is now widely known

hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago
And given the inertia, it will take them a decade to realize how stupid this strategy is.
- sngz 4y ago
  i think it will take jeff bezos dying or stepping down for it to even begin to change
yolovoe 4y ago
I work at AWS on EC2. It's really not bad. Very competent coworkers, technical leadership, plenty of principal engineers willing to help... Oncall's tough, and we definitely need more engineers but otherwise, you learn a lot
- hnexamazon 4y ago
  I also work at AWS on EC2 and agree with this assessment. Amazon is large and the culture varies across organizations. I’ve worked at multiple big tech companies and AWS EC2, while not perfect, is the best place I’ve been part of.
- masterof0 4y ago
  Lol, ex-Amazonian here, please cut the crap. EC2 is infamous for being one of the worst orgs in all AWS. Nasty stack ranking, abusing SDEs on visas, hiring L4s to fire them later, I personally known at least 3 folks that were let go from EC2 (Vpc) and then got into Google and Apple. Give me a break, there is a reason why recruiters have a hard time filling the headcount over there. And on top of that, ton of legacy code. EDIT: Added last sentence.
  - 4y ago

agluszak 4y ago

what does "managing out" mean?

mclightning 4y ago
>> make them quit
spicyusername 4y ago
Fire someone in such a way that you don't have to pay them severance or unemployment benefits. Very dystopian.
TideAd 4y ago
at Amazon it means surprising them with a PIP

afpx 4y ago

Yet, Amazon has over 13,000 open tech positions: https://www.amazon.jobs/en/landing_pages/tech-roles https://www.amazon.jobs/en/landing_pages/tech-roles

kamaal 4y ago
Surprise! In most large companies hiring and firing people are totally different, and rarely ever talk to each other. This is why in most companies if the top management wants to make a big layoff, they first let go the 'recruiting staff', and then work from there. In smaller layoffs, I'd imagine they'd continue to fill in open positions, while eliminating positions they think they don't need. There's also another thing where they want to fill in people where they think need for their newer/hot/important project which they think will give them better profits. And cut people/shut down projects which they think are not important/profitable.
Bilal_io 4y ago
I get contacted by Amazon recruiters very often. I either ignore them or say it's not the right time for me.
- lostmsu 4y ago
  Just sent one to spam for putting "Urgent" on the email title and then outright lying or at least making misleading claim right in the first email.
- alisonatwork 4y ago
  Two of these bozos contacted me on a personal address that I have never used for anything work-related, but does happen to be the email I have registered as my Amazon shopping account. When I wrote back and told them to stop spamming my personal address that had nothing to do with tech work, they said it wasn't their fault, because they had just bought the email list from someone else who had done the work to cross-reference my personal email address with my professional identity. As if that would give me any more trust in them as a company!? To me it just made me even more resolute never to work at any of those "big tech" outfits. None of them seem to care one bit about people's privacy.