8 ms·

> If you have a team of erlang developers do it in erlang (or whatever). Who cares about the market As an IC, I care about the market. I go to work exclusivel

> If you have a team of erlang developers do it in erlang (or whatever). Who cares about the market As an IC, I care about the market. I go to work exclusively to exchange my labor for money to support my addiction to food and shelter. When it was time to change jobs as your bog standard enterprise dev, it was much easier to throw my resume in the air and get a job offer by being an experienced C# developer than it would have been if I had spent three years writing software in Erlang. And most job interviews outside of tech companies where most developers work are not going to be language agnostic nor are they going to have you reversing binary trees on the whiteboard while juggling bowling balls and riding a unicycle on a tightrope. As a reformed former dev lead, why would I hire an Erlang developer when I could throw a rock and hit a good enough C#/Java JavaScript/React developer to push out some CRUD SaaS app or line of business app?

brigandish 4y ago
Because the average Erlang developer is probably a better developer than the average in those languages and still quite capable of writing in any of those languages, at least with a little study and practice. Are we really to believe that the average Javascript developer is going to be able to be dropped in an Erlang shop (or any of the other "weird" languages) and be productive any time soon?
- scarface74 4y ago
  The “language” is the easy part. Every language has an ecosystem around it and foot guns and best practices and frameworks. Take C# for instance, sure the language is decently easy. But, the first and third party frameworks around it are huge. I’m sure I could (re)learn Java that I haven’t touched since shortly after it was first introduced in the 90s in a few weeks. That doesn’t mean I would be a competent Android developer. The average JavaScript developer would be an idiot to ever step foot in Erlang shop if he knew what was good for his career. My resume was sacrosanct when I was in the enterprise dev world until mid 2020. Why would I reduce my optionality by not using the most marketable technologies?
  - wiseowise 4y ago
    > That doesn’t mean I would be a competent Android developer. Sure you will. There’s no “Android developer”, there’s Java/Kotlin developer who uses Android SDK.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      And I assure you that someone who needs an Android app written wouldn’t care about your distinction or are you claiming that a Java developer who never wrote an application for Android would be just as effective as one who had? Who would you rather lead the development of your Android app? Someone with no experience with Android or someone with previous experience.
      - wiseowise 4y ago
        I’ll absolutely pick competent Java developer who never touched a line of Android over mediocre “Android” developer.
        scarface74 4y ago
        And how do you think that would work out if you’re hiring a lead developer to oversee a team who is trying to release an Android app?
        brigandish 4y ago
        That depends on the team leader and how well they can take suggestions. It's a team, not everyone will have the same background and, probably, nor would it be best that they did.
        scarface74 4y ago
        So if the team lead that I’m hiring to be the subject matter expert can’t be the go to person for technical solutions based on relevant experience in the domain, who should it be?
mattpallissard 4y ago
From my experience the shops using esoteric languages aren't recruting based on knowledge of a specific tool. They're hunting for very experienced candidates. It's assumed you'll learn the language. Knowledge of a specific language does not necessarily mean you're a good developer.
- scarface74 4y ago
  And why would an “experienced candidate” ever step foot in those shops when they could easily get a job using a more marketable language that probably paid just as much and would make it easier for them to get their next job?
  - fiddlerwoaroof 4y ago
    I personally would be hesitant to hire someone who only listed popular technologies on their resume. I’d be worried they would suggest using technologies that improve their resume rather than ones that are good for my business.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      Your business is probably not a special snowflake and probably would be served by using the most popular relevant technology. It would be much easier to recruit and to find help. I personally hate the clusterfuck of the modern front end ecosystem and would avoid it like the plague. But, if I was responsible for choosing the framework to use, I would choose React any day just for recruitment reasons.
  - lmm 4y ago
    Because that "marketable language" is dull and frustrating? If you want top talent then you've got to offer something they want; sure you can always pay more, but past a certain point that might not be enough, plus it gets expensive. Using better languages is one of the most effective ways to get noticed by the candidates you really want.
    - 4y ago
aeontech 4y ago
Conversely, if you spent 3 years writing Erlang, you are suddenly not one of a hundreds of thousands of candidates, but a part of a much smaller pool, and having an expertise in a semi-esoteric language along whatever mainstream languages you know is a strong signal that you’re not just an average bear. It also means you’re competing in a much smaller market and people looking for strong Erlang developers will be suddenly very interested in you specifically, because it’s tough to find strong candidates with this expertise. It also might mean (depending on your interests) that positions that are open are in a more intellectually interesting problem space, because boring problems tend to be solved in the lowest common denominator languages, and if an unusual language is chosen, it might be chosen because it’s a being used in a unique context.
- scarface74 4y ago
  Yes I’m sure all of the large tech companies are solving boring problems using popular languages.
  - aeontech 4y ago
    Ok, but do you really think you’d have a hard time finding work with your xx years of experience, regardless of what language you have been most recently working in? As in, reductio ad absurdum, “if only I had been working in Java, I’d be safe, but because I worked in Ruby, I am going have to go flip burgers, as no one will let me near their precious production code now?” I mean, yeah, ok, there was the dotcom bust, and I suppose another could happen at any point, but somehow I get the impression that you’re arguing that using any language except the most mainstream option (whatever that might be for a given industry) is too risky? Or am I misreading?
    - scarface74 4y ago
      Well, I wouldn’t have a hard time finding a job in my current speciality cloud architect/cloud dev because of where I work and what I do. No one would ignore my resume. But in the boring enterprise dev world where I came from especially during the latter part where I was specifically being hired to lead initiatives, of course they wanted someone with relevant experience.
Test0129 4y ago
Sure, but you're not really disagreeing with me. Idiot proof languages are popular. If you want assured money learn an idiot proof LCD language. In fact, everyone should have one in their tool belt to put food on the table. However, if you're actually a talented engineer these languages will hamstring you and your art. You will probably eventually gravitate to something more heady (such as the less popular languages) and probably even leave your nice cushy gig to give a professional life in that stack a shot. This isn't, however, to say talented engineers don't exist in lowest common denominator language pools. It's just esoteric/less-used languages tends to cause the best quality of talent to come from them owing from many of their problems. If you can be proficient and productive in a language that you can't easily google a solution for, you're probably an excellent candidate for promotion into the higher echelons. This is a similar phenomenon to editor choice. My anecdata in a little over 10 years of a career has given me the impression that I can tell what kind of developer someone is by their editor. People who use raw vim/emacs tend to better developers. Why? It's not the editor itself. It's that these editors pull no punches and require time and expertise. That dedication is not taught. The easier an editor is to use for a beginner, the more average a programmer tends to be. Again, there are a lot of very talented developers using VSCode or full blown IDEs. But with those editors your signal to noise ratio is quite low. It's anecdata but mixed with the information above you can gather a lot of "metadata" about a person without much effort.
- kcb 4y ago
  It's like the equivalent of judging a carpenter for using power tools because he's just not dedicated and gritty enough to use a manual twist drill. My anecdata, people who overly focus on language and tools tend to be the worse developers. It's the developers that effectively address the universal problems of writing software people want to use, like api usability, reliability, data consistency, maintainability that have the most props in my book. The best developers I've known weren't particularly attached to any editor, language, or framework.
  - throwaway290 4y ago
    > It's like the equivalent of judging a carpenter for using power tools because he's just not dedicated and gritty enough to use a manual twist drill. Serious question: all else equal and without any additional information, between two carpenters who produced the same output in the same time, one with power tools the other without, is there any reason whatsoever to assume one of them is any better than the other?
paganel 4y ago
> C#/Java JavaScript/React developer to push out some CRUD SaaS app or line of business app? Because of this: "The Python Paradox" [1]. Replace Python (which has become mainstream in the meantime) with any other "weird" language from the article and I think the point still stands. If it matters I had started learning Python just about when this article was being written/published, and in my early to mid-career that advice of using a "weird" language (Python, at the time) was really good for me, got me into a couple of small companies where I really enjoyed working. Granted, now I'm already over 40 years of age with a mortgage to pay, I'm a little more flexible when it comes to the technologies being used (even though I would cry myself to work in the early hours of morning were I to use Java, and I'm not kidding), but for people who are quite early in their careers letting them explore and use those "weird" languages will still do them a lot of good in terms of them enjoying their programming work, they might even land on a forum written in Arc. [1] http://www.paulgraham.com/pypar.html http://www.paulgraham.com/pypar.html
- scarface74 4y ago
  People early in their career are the last ones that should do anything in obscure languages. Most of the time the biggest leap in salary comes in your first few years. Once you break the can’t get a job <-> don’t have experience cycle, you need to be able to jump ship. When I first started in my career over two and a half decades ago, my focus was on being able to be aligned with the market and being able to support myself. I was young, single, had no responsibilities and just moved to a major city. The last thing I considered “fun” was programming.
  - paganel 4y ago
    That's the thing, it's not only about the salary. Yes, you leave money on the table if you do that (I know I did, I have friends the same age as me who earn a lot more than I do because they went the non-obscure language path early in their career), but at the same time you also bring some purpose into your professional life, which cannot be entirely bought with money. Or maybe I was the weak one when I didn't see myself programming in something like Java for a living for my entire career (30 to 40 years), again, that would have literally caused me to cry before going to work, in which case, yes, those persons that can surpass that type of feeling should definitely go for the "more money/less interesting programming stuff" route.

brigandish 4y ago

Because the average Erlang developer is probably a better developer than the average in those languages and still quite capable of writing in any of those languages, at least with a little study and practice. Are we really to believe that the average Javascript developer is going to be able to be dropped in an Erlang shop (or any of the other "weird" languages) and be productive any time soon?

scarface74 4y ago
The “language” is the easy part. Every language has an ecosystem around it and foot guns and best practices and frameworks. Take C# for instance, sure the language is decently easy. But, the first and third party frameworks around it are huge. I’m sure I could (re)learn Java that I haven’t touched since shortly after it was first introduced in the 90s in a few weeks. That doesn’t mean I would be a competent Android developer. The average JavaScript developer would be an idiot to ever step foot in Erlang shop if he knew what was good for his career. My resume was sacrosanct when I was in the enterprise dev world until mid 2020. Why would I reduce my optionality by not using the most marketable technologies?
- wiseowise 4y ago
  > That doesn’t mean I would be a competent Android developer. Sure you will. There’s no “Android developer”, there’s Java/Kotlin developer who uses Android SDK.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    And I assure you that someone who needs an Android app written wouldn’t care about your distinction or are you claiming that a Java developer who never wrote an application for Android would be just as effective as one who had? Who would you rather lead the development of your Android app? Someone with no experience with Android or someone with previous experience.
    - wiseowise 4y ago
      I’ll absolutely pick competent Java developer who never touched a line of Android over mediocre “Android” developer.
      - scarface74 4y ago
        And how do you think that would work out if you’re hiring a lead developer to oversee a team who is trying to release an Android app?
        brigandish 4y ago
        That depends on the team leader and how well they can take suggestions. It's a team, not everyone will have the same background and, probably, nor would it be best that they did.
        scarface74 4y ago
        So if the team lead that I’m hiring to be the subject matter expert can’t be the go to person for technical solutions based on relevant experience in the domain, who should it be?

mattpallissard 4y ago

From my experience the shops using esoteric languages aren't recruting based on knowledge of a specific tool. They're hunting for very experienced candidates. It's assumed you'll learn the language. Knowledge of a specific language does not necessarily mean you're a good developer.

scarface74 4y ago
And why would an “experienced candidate” ever step foot in those shops when they could easily get a job using a more marketable language that probably paid just as much and would make it easier for them to get their next job?
- fiddlerwoaroof 4y ago
  I personally would be hesitant to hire someone who only listed popular technologies on their resume. I’d be worried they would suggest using technologies that improve their resume rather than ones that are good for my business.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    Your business is probably not a special snowflake and probably would be served by using the most popular relevant technology. It would be much easier to recruit and to find help. I personally hate the clusterfuck of the modern front end ecosystem and would avoid it like the plague. But, if I was responsible for choosing the framework to use, I would choose React any day just for recruitment reasons.
- lmm 4y ago
  Because that "marketable language" is dull and frustrating? If you want top talent then you've got to offer something they want; sure you can always pay more, but past a certain point that might not be enough, plus it gets expensive. Using better languages is one of the most effective ways to get noticed by the candidates you really want.
  - 4y ago

aeontech 4y ago

Conversely, if you spent 3 years writing Erlang, you are suddenly not one of a hundreds of thousands of candidates, but a part of a much smaller pool, and having an expertise in a semi-esoteric language along whatever mainstream languages you know is a strong signal that you’re not just an average bear. It also means you’re competing in a much smaller market and people looking for strong Erlang developers will be suddenly very interested in you specifically, because it’s tough to find strong candidates with this expertise. It also might mean (depending on your interests) that positions that are open are in a more intellectually interesting problem space, because boring problems tend to be solved in the lowest common denominator languages, and if an unusual language is chosen, it might be chosen because it’s a being used in a unique context.

scarface74 4y ago
Yes I’m sure all of the large tech companies are solving boring problems using popular languages.
- aeontech 4y ago
  Ok, but do you really think you’d have a hard time finding work with your xx years of experience, regardless of what language you have been most recently working in? As in, reductio ad absurdum, “if only I had been working in Java, I’d be safe, but because I worked in Ruby, I am going have to go flip burgers, as no one will let me near their precious production code now?” I mean, yeah, ok, there was the dotcom bust, and I suppose another could happen at any point, but somehow I get the impression that you’re arguing that using any language except the most mainstream option (whatever that might be for a given industry) is too risky? Or am I misreading?
  - scarface74 4y ago
    Well, I wouldn’t have a hard time finding a job in my current speciality cloud architect/cloud dev because of where I work and what I do. No one would ignore my resume. But in the boring enterprise dev world where I came from especially during the latter part where I was specifically being hired to lead initiatives, of course they wanted someone with relevant experience.

Test0129 4y ago

Sure, but you're not really disagreeing with me. Idiot proof languages are popular. If you want assured money learn an idiot proof LCD language. In fact, everyone should have one in their tool belt to put food on the table. However, if you're actually a talented engineer these languages will hamstring you and your art. You will probably eventually gravitate to something more heady (such as the less popular languages) and probably even leave your nice cushy gig to give a professional life in that stack a shot. This isn't, however, to say talented engineers don't exist in lowest common denominator language pools. It's just esoteric/less-used languages tends to cause the best quality of talent to come from them owing from many of their problems. If you can be proficient and productive in a language that you can't easily google a solution for, you're probably an excellent candidate for promotion into the higher echelons. This is a similar phenomenon to editor choice. My anecdata in a little over 10 years of a career has given me the impression that I can tell what kind of developer someone is by their editor. People who use raw vim/emacs tend to better developers. Why? It's not the editor itself. It's that these editors pull no punches and require time and expertise. That dedication is not taught. The easier an editor is to use for a beginner, the more average a programmer tends to be. Again, there are a lot of very talented developers using VSCode or full blown IDEs. But with those editors your signal to noise ratio is quite low. It's anecdata but mixed with the information above you can gather a lot of "metadata" about a person without much effort.

kcb 4y ago
It's like the equivalent of judging a carpenter for using power tools because he's just not dedicated and gritty enough to use a manual twist drill. My anecdata, people who overly focus on language and tools tend to be the worse developers. It's the developers that effectively address the universal problems of writing software people want to use, like api usability, reliability, data consistency, maintainability that have the most props in my book. The best developers I've known weren't particularly attached to any editor, language, or framework.
- throwaway290 4y ago
  > It's like the equivalent of judging a carpenter for using power tools because he's just not dedicated and gritty enough to use a manual twist drill. Serious question: all else equal and without any additional information, between two carpenters who produced the same output in the same time, one with power tools the other without, is there any reason whatsoever to assume one of them is any better than the other?

paganel 4y ago

> C#/Java JavaScript/React developer to push out some CRUD SaaS app or line of business app? Because of this: "The Python Paradox" [1]. Replace Python (which has become mainstream in the meantime) with any other "weird" language from the article and I think the point still stands. If it matters I had started learning Python just about when this article was being written/published, and in my early to mid-career that advice of using a "weird" language (Python, at the time) was really good for me, got me into a couple of small companies where I really enjoyed working. Granted, now I'm already over 40 years of age with a mortgage to pay, I'm a little more flexible when it comes to the technologies being used (even though I would cry myself to work in the early hours of morning were I to use Java, and I'm not kidding), but for people who are quite early in their careers letting them explore and use those "weird" languages will still do them a lot of good in terms of them enjoying their programming work, they might even land on a forum written in Arc. [1] http://www.paulgraham.com/pypar.html http://www.paulgraham.com/pypar.html

scarface74 4y ago
People early in their career are the last ones that should do anything in obscure languages. Most of the time the biggest leap in salary comes in your first few years. Once you break the can’t get a job <-> don’t have experience cycle, you need to be able to jump ship. When I first started in my career over two and a half decades ago, my focus was on being able to be aligned with the market and being able to support myself. I was young, single, had no responsibilities and just moved to a major city. The last thing I considered “fun” was programming.
- paganel 4y ago
  That's the thing, it's not only about the salary. Yes, you leave money on the table if you do that (I know I did, I have friends the same age as me who earn a lot more than I do because they went the non-obscure language path early in their career), but at the same time you also bring some purpose into your professional life, which cannot be entirely bought with money. Or maybe I was the weak one when I didn't see myself programming in something like Java for a living for my entire career (30 to 40 years), again, that would have literally caused me to cry before going to work, in which case, yes, those persons that can surpass that type of feeling should definitely go for the "more money/less interesting programming stuff" route.