11 ms·

We’re adding barcodes to our regular stamps

81 points by admp 4y ago

Symbiote 4y ago
At the top: > The barcodes will enable exciting new services by connecting physical stamps to the digital world through the Royal Mail app Then in the FAQ > Why are you adding barcodes to stamps? > > The move is part of the Company’s extensive and ongoing modernisation drive and will allow the unique barcodes to facilitate operational efficiencies, enable the introduction of added security features and pave the way for innovative services for customers. I wish companies would be honest in the plain language, and avoid phrases like "facilitate operational efficiencies". "The barcodes will prevent fraud" would be fine. (People sell counterfeit or used stamps on eBay. The first result is [2], on sale for £9.99 with a face value of £80. Royal Mail's own site even says "Counterfeit stamps are often sold in quantities of 55..." [3]. Obviously eBay have a "policy" against this, and obviously they don't enforce it [4].) [2] https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/284986420186 https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/284986420186 [3] https://personal.help.royalmail.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/14308/~/what-is-stamp-fraud%3F https://personal.help.royalmail.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/... [4] https://www.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/prohibited-restricted-items/stamps-policy?id=5043 https://www.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/prohibited-restricted-i...
- Symbiote 4y ago
  "Any person importing, distributing, selling or otherwise assisting in the sale of counterfeit stamps is committing offences of fraud and/or counterfeiting" [1] I am surprised there are so many listed on eBay. Just the two "sponsored" listings on eBay for the search "first class stamps" have already sold over £1000 of counterfeit stamps, and about £20 in fees for eBay. [1] https://personal.help.royalmail.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/14308 https://personal.help.royalmail.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/...
  - Syonyk 4y ago
    > I am surprised there are so many listed on eBay. I'm not. They make money from it, just like Amazon makes money from the counterfeiters, scammers, and fraudulent sellers. Google has plenty of ads for fake stamps if you search for stamps - they're about the only ones you'll find ads for. Someone will write an article that gets traction talking about the vibrant market for fake stamps on eBay and Google, and they'll issue the Standard Tech Apology, "We are so, so sorry you caught us doing this and we will try harder to avoid you catching us doing it in the future," they'll clamp down for a few months, and then will quietly ignore the rise in the profitable listings again after the attention dies down. People selling fake products are great ad buyers. They have to bid high enough to be placed ahead of "organic" results and legitimate stuff, and if they get caught, you can keep their money per the terms and agreements and such.
  - adolph 4y ago
    The surprising part is that people go to such effort for such a low value commodity. Who is sending 1k worth of Christmas cards etc? Maybe small biz, but again the value added doesn’t seem to match the risk of getting your model train outfit raised by the postal inspector. Maybe anarchists use these exclusively to avoid paying the man?
    - Fezzik 4y ago
      Just a random example: I’m involved a bit in the Magic: The Gathering resale market and I know plenty of unscrupulous sellers who would gladly buy fake stamps to send their merchandise if it would save them even a few cents on every sale. Postage adds up when you’re shipping hundreds or thousands of envelopes in a low margin, competitive market. And I imagine there are lots of other collectable and re-sale markets with similarly principled people.
      - adolph 4y ago
        I hear you and that is why I added the hypothetical small biz shipping model train parts. A visit by the postal inspector would really ruin a low margin biz. Likewise, I suppose a postal service must weigh the cost/benefit of pursuing counterfeit stamps--it might not be costly enough compared to other forms of problems.
    - Gigachad 4y ago
      Many small eBay sales are shipped as letters. Fake stamps would save you a fortune.
    - electroly 4y ago
      In the US you can use stamps for Priority Mail packages; they're not just for letters! My dad does this when he sends packages because he can get (legitimate) bulk postage at odd denominations for less than face value. You can use more postage than will physically fit on the box; more postage can go into a shipping label pouch. I imagine the stamps get used up a lot faster when you're shipping packages with it. A tip to anyone wanting to get into this: legitimate bulk postage is sold by the pound!
- p1necone 4y ago
  Is it to stop counterfeiting? It could literally just be so that stamps can be scanned automatically to check whether they are the right denomination, which squares up with "facilitate operational efficiencies". Is "added security features" really less clear than "prevent fraud"? The barcode would only be useful to prevent counterfeiting if each stamp had a unique barcode that could be invalidated once used, but the linked page doesn't say whether or not that is the case.
  - danuker 4y ago
    > to check whether they are the right denomination This is a trivial problem compared to handwriting OCR going on in some post offices in the world, and does not require barcodes.
    - p1necone 4y ago
      It is possible that the lower CPU time scanning barcodes vs scanning color images and detecting the stamp is a big enough optimization to be worth it at scale.
      - londons_explore 4y ago
        The old stamps already had machine readable UV markers to mark their money value.
- barbazoo 4y ago
  If they're unique, and they better be, maybe that'll allow for tracking by default.
- jcrawfordor 4y ago
  My guess is that one of the biggest motivations is to enable one-time address digitization. I'm only really familiar with USPS but my understanding is that the Royal Mail Mailmark system is largely similar to the USPS IMB system. Bulk mailers have long been required to barcode mail with destination information to reduce the need to OCR addresses, which is a particularly complex and expensive part of the operation. Non-bulk mail actually gets barcoded by an inline printer in the sorting machine after the first time it is OCRd, to avoid the need to OCR it again later in handling. Well, that's the case in the US. From what I can tell Royal Mail doesn't currently do this, and so they're going to have to OCR the address repeatedly on all non-bulk items. At this point, putting a unique barcode on the stamp and then associating it with the destination in an online database is probably much cheaper for them to roll out than adding barcode printing to their sorting equipment. And it provides counterfeiting and fraud resistance, along with the ability to add detailed tracking to letters very cheaply.
  - TMWNN 4y ago
    >And it provides counterfeiting and fraud resistance, along with the ability to add detailed tracking to letters very cheaply. Yes, this is what I was curious about. (For non-Americans' benefit: All USPS shipping is tracked with barcodes, except for stamped mail. USPS offering this would benefit merchants who would be able to ship very small/thin items in envelopes with tracking, and people in general who want to be able to follow their stamped letters' progress.)
  - tialaramex 4y ago
    > Well, that's the case in the US. From what I can tell Royal Mail doesn't currently do this, and so they're going to have to OCR the address repeatedly on all non-bulk items. Take a closer look at the bottom right hand edge of some non-bulk mail. Huh, those are some faint orange lines. What's going on? That's RM4SCC encoded data from the sorting machinery. It's not "really" faint orange, that's a fluorescent ink, inside the machine under appropriate lighting rather than the faint orange these lines show up very nicely. They're encoding (2 bits per line) a unique identifier so the system can track every individual piece of mail for a few weeks, plus its Delivery Point destination. [I would guess "faint orange" was chosen because it's unobtrusive, yet you can't honestly claim it's hiding] After the initial OCR run, later machines just see "Oh, #238205724145, still headed for 18 Long Drive, AB12 34XZ" without needing OCR and then people at a higher level can ask e.g. why the fuck is there so much mail handled by this Glasgow sorting office and find that aha, some bozo has directed all the mail for Swansea via this office, what a buffoon, we'll fix that. Probably if you're murder police, you could get Royal Mail to scan it and tell you this crucial envelope entered their system at about 12:30 on September 24th in Liverpool central office, and it was eventually given to a human to deliver at 08:47 last Tuesday, but I'd guess this is rarely useful and it's not something they will tell random members of the public. The Delivery Point is redundant if you're a human since the address is printed in human readable letters.
- jawns 4y ago
  Above the FAQ: > Our new barcoded stamps also enable you to watch and share exclusive Shaun the Sheep videos via the barcode itself, using the Royal Mail App. Initially I thought operational efficiencies and fraud prevention were the likely reasons, but oh hey look there's a marketing angle too.
- bvm 4y ago
  "Counterfeit stamps are often sold in quantities of 55..." I wonder why this is? Surely it would be relatively easy for a counterfeiter to sell them in quantities of 50 instead.
  - Symbiote 4y ago
    It shows how useless eBay is in policing their own site. Assuming (as reported) the stamps are produced in China and Turkey, it would be very easy for the counterfeit sellers in the UK to simply cut off 5 stamps from each sheet, removing this obvious signal to eBay.
- melony 4y ago
  Did the recession chase away the crypto folks and blockchain evangelists? They usually would have crawled out of the woodwork by now promoting their favorite product.
HuangYuSan 4y ago
I see a barcode without bars but ok
- regularespresso 4y ago
  They are small, square bars of equal width and height, arranged in a pleasingly grid-like grid. Thank you.
- hoppyhoppy2 4y ago
  More of a squarescode.
- rippercushions 4y ago
  Does anybody know which standard they're using? It's not either of the common 2D codes, namely QR Code or PDF417, and while it looks a bit like Data Matrix, AFAIK those are always square.
  - garrettgrimsley 4y ago
    It appears to be 2D Mailmark Type 29 https://www.royalmail.com/sites/default/files/Royal-Mail-Mailmark-barcode-definition-document-September-2015.pdf https://www.royalmail.com/sites/default/files/Royal-Mail-Mai...
    - jcrawfordor 4y ago
      It is Data Matrix, Mailmark is basically a logical standard on top of Data Matrix ECC200. Data Matrix allows the blocks to be arranged in multiple layouts, square or rectangular.
      - garrettgrimsley 4y ago
        Yes, it is accurate to say that all Mailmark barcodes are Data Matrix, but not all Data Matrix are Mailmark. In the document I linked they explain the specifics of the logical standard you mention. The US Postal Service also uses a DataMatrix on some of their stamps, but not all. I just looked up an official specification document for the USPS codes, but couldn't find it. I did find this page dedicated to postal barcodes. It looks like the USPS ones may more accurately be called IBI Lite? https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/United_States_Postage_Meter_Stamp_Catalog/GROUP_Q_%E2%80%93_Digital_stamps_with_2D_barcode https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/United_States_Postage_Meter_St... Can anyone chime in with the security measures present on non-barcoded stamps? I have a Global Forever Stamp on the desk in front of me, and there's nothing that is visible to the naked-eye. While we're on the subject of barcodes and shipping, check out MaxiCode! I've scanned hundreds of thousands of those little bulls-eyes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MaxiCode https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MaxiCode
MarchKilroy89 4y ago
Translation: Keeping with our effort to turn this country into more of a Panopticon, and aligned with our belief that no two parties should be able to communicate privately, we hate that you can send mail mostly anonymously, and this gives us a bit more power to surveil you by making stamps unique.
- scrollaway 4y ago
  If you're going to make this claim, at least give a reasonable explanation as to how this deanonymisation works. Otherwise your comment is no better than "they're putting microchips in the vaccines" junk.
  - MarchKilroy89 4y ago
    A simple scenario that comes to mind is that given a letter, it's now easier to tie it back to the stamp's point of sale. "Who purchased this stamp?" is a very hard question to answer in their current (essentially fungible) form. Adding barcodes makes this much easier. This assumes that stamps are scanned when sold, to tie their barcodes to the purchaser. That may happen. It may not. But clearly the more scans a stamp gets increases the tracking resolution for a given piece of mail both after AND before mailing. This "before mailing" part is new and opens the door for a much higher level of surveillance.
    - MarchKilroy89 4y ago
      To give a real world example: Imagine if America had a system like this in place when the Zodiac killer was active in California. A prolific writer of letters to the press, all of Zodiac's barcode-stamped envelopes would open up new potential leads in answering questions like "when was this stamp manufactured" and "where was this stamp originally sold".
      - woodruffw 4y ago
        While I actually do appreciate the importance of postal anonymity, the Zodiac Killer is maybe not the best example to select.
throwaway892238 4y ago
"Why are you adding barcodes to stamps?" "The move is part of the Company’s extensive and ongoing modernisation drive and will allow the unique barcodes to facilitate operational efficiencies, enable the introduction of added security features and pave the way for innovative services for customers." Answer my question without answering my question.
- Gigachad 4y ago
  It’s pretty clear. It’s primarily to prevent fraud. The security feature is the letters can now be scanned and the number can be checked on an online system to check it is a valid stamp which has not been used before. The second part seems to suggest they could add extra functions on like letting you track letter delivery as you would a parcel.
neilpanchal 4y ago
For those who are curious, these are 2DID Datamatrix codes, also used in the semiconductor industry extensively to mark wafers and chips. If you pick up an Intel CPU, its going to have a couple of tiny datamatrix codes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Matrix https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Matrix
- Someone1234 4y ago
  If anyone was curious why Data Matrix instead of QR Code this article goes into detail: https://www.laserax.com/blog/data-matrix-vs-qr-codes https://www.laserax.com/blog/data-matrix-vs-qr-codes Looks like Data Matrix has higher error correction (per size) and better data density (at every size). QR Code has a higher theoretical storage capacity, larger maximum size, and multi-byte data support (rather than limited to alphanumeric), none of which applies to this use case though. It also looks like that Data Matrix may work with a lower contrast than QR Code. Both can be read from any angle. Honestly, purely from a technical standpoint, the biggest arguments for QR Codes is their popularity/adoption, and things like that you can stylize the code itself. Maybe I need to do more research, but on the face of it Data Matrix looks like it is technically superior.
  - jillesvangurp 4y ago
    I think the only relevant thing about any kind of scannable code is reliability. QR Codes are widely used and seem to work fine with just about any smart phone. So, they are good enough. Maybe Data Matrix is slightly easier to scan. But it's not really a problem with QR Codes.
    - ale42 4y ago
      But AFAIK you can't do non-square QR codes. Plus, at small sizes, you lose a lot of space for the alignment marks.
      - jillesvangurp 4y ago
        If that matters to you, then yes that's a limitation. However, big qr codes are easier to scan. Making them smaller requires higher resolution scanning devices and more careful aiming of the device. So, it's not necessarily that big of a deal. The alignment marks are scaled along with the qr code. So, they don't use more space for smaller codes. The shape limitation is more of an esthetic thing. I don't think people care that much.
pabs3 4y ago
What is a good tool for decoding these barcodes? Neither zbar nor zxing-cpp seem to be able to decode the DataMatrix image on Wikipedia.
- moring 4y ago
  What did the error correction report -- is it valid on a byte level? They might use a new highlevel encoding, but I doubt it, and they are certainly not re-inventing the error correction level. This stuff is hard math and there is no value in re-inventing that. The higher level might be encrypted to prevent fraud, but that would show as valid on the error correction level. Other than that, my first guess is that the image shown there is not an actual data matrix code but a fake image made for the web site. On a second thought, they might have used a simple pseudo-encryption (read: security through obscurity) on a lower level, such as flipping the inner pixels. But then again, this means you cannot use standard tools for anything, so I doubt it.
  - pabs3 4y ago
    Trying to decode the DataMatrix image on Wikipedia just says no barcode found.
mikelward 4y ago
Not in the FAQ: "If this is so important, why don't these changes apply to special stamps?" and "You're designing new stamps, but you're putting the Late Queen on them, not the new King?"
- londons_explore 4y ago
  Fraud levels on special stamps are still low. And because lots of people have collections if special stamps and would baulk if they all became unusable. Don't worry, they'll add barcodes on those too when fraud switches to them. Royal mail is a slow company... They'll take a long time to update the design.
- maratc 4y ago
  Also not in the FAQ: "I'm 90 years old and I don't know what 'download an app' or 'fill the form online' even mean. Provided you don't swap stamps at the post office, what you suggest me to do?" But these won't even read this online-only announcement, so I guess ... screw them.
  - bear8642 4y ago
    >online-only It's printed on envelopes recently arrived currently. That's how I heard about this
    - maratc 4y ago
      It could be that the announcement on the envelopes had some "off-line" instructions; this (online) announcement has none.
  - andrewaylett 4y ago
    We got a form through our letterbox with our post yesterday -- I'm assuming that the OP also got one, and that's why we're seeing the news here today.
- DocTomoe 4y ago
  I would expect them to make more money selling special stamps to collectors (who then quickly make them disappear without ever using them) than they make by delivering mail. Better not disturb a business line like that.
Zamicol 4y ago
What information is being encoded in the QR code? Any details on the size of the barcode payload?
- moring 4y ago
  If the picture is an actual code used (BTW it's a data matrix, not QR, you can tell by the solid L / dotted L outline): The code has 48x16 pixels. Subtract the outlines (solid) / timers (dotted), that's 44x14 = 616 bits. IIRC error correction takes around 1/4 of that, leaving 462 bits or 57 ASCII characters.
ZiiS 4y ago
Seems very quick deprecation? If they urgently need the barcode why support picture stamps without it. If the don't then supporting both for a year will dramatically reduce the amount of swapping they need to do.
- blitzar 4y ago
  They have already been supporting both for a while. Presumably they would like to go 100% to the new workflow in their sorting centres. A longer swap period means more expensive equipment sat there doing nothing or longer period of time supporting two different workflows. Also the distribution of stamps held; people who post a lot - 0 swaps needed. People who hoard - have multiple years supply. People who dont post often at all but have stamps sat around - 10 years supply assuming you can find where that 10 pack of stamps is. 6-12 months to restock all outlets and have companies wind down their supplies of old stamps, and a good amount of time to test the new workflow on an increasing volume, while still being able to back off if the system blows up.
- Symbiote 4y ago
  The new stamps were introduced in February this year, and the old ones expire at the end of January next year.
  - ZiiS 4y ago
    That makes much more sense; "We’re adding barcodes to our regular stamps" is not a super clear way of saying "We added barcodes to our stamps over 7 months ago". I guess not having bought stamps in that time dose mean I am not really the target market.
- Double_a_92 4y ago
  There are huge amounts of fake regular stamps being sold on e.g. eBay. I guess the damage those cause, is higher than the costs of the swapping.
jbverschoor 4y ago
In NL you can just buy a 9 letter code, write it on your envelope, and you’re fine. No need for any stamps
- elcritch 4y ago
  Wait so the NL's have had NFT's this whole time? I need to collect a few of these before they take off! ;)
- nafest 4y ago
  Possible in Germany as well. Really handy as you don’t need a printer.
londons_explore 4y ago
There are so many features royal mail could add to letter/parcel delivery that users might want to pay for, and would cost them nothing. Eg. * See what mail is headed your way. They could have email/text/app notifications of mail that's headed towards you, including a picture of the outside of the parcel and estimated delivery dates/times. * The ability for the receiver to pay to prioritize incoming mail. Sometimes you're sent something with slow second class mail, but then realise you really need it urgently, so could pay to 'upgrade' to express service. * Auto upgrade all mail headed to you if you buy stuff online and hate businesses that send stuff with cheap shipping. * Perhaps an x-ray service so you can see inside parcels - would be handy for businesses that do returns who need to check the real goods are headed their way. * Super express services. Pay £500 and we'll dispatch an employee direct to your address with the parcel, and it'll take the driving time plus 10 minutes. Operationally it's only the same as the employee going home sick midday. * One off redirect services. 'I'm at work today, send my parcel there'. * Allow adding delay. 'Im on holiday, don't deliver any mail for me this week, I don't want someone breaking into my house to steal it'. * Allow binning a letter before it even arrives - for spam and junkmail. Maybe have automated spam filters which can be enabled (and binned items can be held for a while before being actually destroyed in case of classification error). * Allow understanding names of people at your address - eg. "Return to sender any mail addressed to Fred Smith, he no longer lives at my house" * Notifications that the postman is 5 minutes away and has something too large for a regular letterbox. That means the postman won't have to wait so long after ringing the doorbell. * "Letter to email" service. If you ask, they open the envelope and scan and email you a pdf of the contents. Then you get the info faster, and is also helpful for people away from home, businesses that need a mailing address but have no employees to deal with mail, etc. All of these services would be free/cheap to implement, and each could be a chargable service that earns the company money.
- nicky0 4y ago
  Brilliant. If I was looking to hire an ideas guy I would have you.
  - londons_explore 4y ago
londons_explore 4y ago
To the HN crowd... This is the risk of any kind of token that has no expiration date. If whatever security measures you have in place ever get broken (watermarks, holograms, digital signatures, etc), then you have a big problem. And no security feature available today will be secure forever. So your company or government should never issue digital or real tokens that last forever.
kioleanu 4y ago
The german post did this last year for the physical stamps - the electronic stamps already had a code. This way, you get some tracking, but the only advtange is that you can see when your letter was automatically processed in a center, the postpeople don't scan normal letters
ryzvonusef 4y ago
> Can I take my stamps to the Post Office to swap them out? > No — you can't swap your non-barcoded stamps out at a Post Office. You will need to pick up a 'Swap Out' form and send in your non-barcoded stamps to Royal Mail (free post address on the form). Print one off our web site; contact Customer Experience and we'll post one out to you; pick one up from your local Delivery Offices' Customer Service Point. > Please note swap out forms are not available at Post Offices. This is batshit stupid. What's the point of a post office if it can't help you with stamps?
- londons_explore 4y ago
  Post offices are an independent business from royal mail. So they generally want to be paid for every service they offer, and I guess royal mail doesn't want to pay the fee. Also, this swapout is in part to eliminate fraudulent stamps. The post office won't have the necessary high tech equipment to separate the real stamps from the (very good) fakes.
- daveoc64 4y ago
  Since privatisation, the Post Office is a separate company to Royal Mail. While the Post Office does sell a lot of Royal Mail products, there are some that the Post Office has deemed unprofitable, and as such, the Post Office has nothing to do with.
- FridayoLeary 4y ago
  It is stupid. Many things that were once trivial to do in a post office now have extra hurdles.
  - fy20 4y ago
    Not stupid, it was very profitable for some of the Conservative Party MPs and their buddies who allowed it to be privatised.
mbtwl 4y ago
German mail system got rid of the need for stamps a while ago. Using this ever since. You can buy a stamp via app and the stamp is just a code you write with pen on the letter. Link unfortunately in German: https://www.paketda.de/frankieren/mobile-briefmarke.html https://www.paketda.de/frankieren/mobile-briefmarke.html
- ale42 4y ago
  Swiss post has a similar thing, you can buy a stamp (on the form of a 9-letter code) via SMS. Never used but seems it works. No barcodes for regular stamps for now, but datamatrix barcodes are used since more than 15 years for bulk mail and print-at-home stamps.
c120 4y ago
While there's currently no den date for the swap, I'm pretty sure there will be one in a few years and then all stamps from stamp collections world wide will be worthless. European countries did the same when the Euro came and they made a ton of money by being able to devaluate all stamp collections... (you have to consider that stamp collection was a huge thing but now is no longer so that when stamp collectors die many collections enter the market...)
- speps 4y ago
  This is stupid, many stamps in a stamp collections won't be able to be used to actually send any post anyway. Do you have any source to your claims?
kkfx 4y ago
I think it's more interesting asking for a (large) Qr code who encode: - sender data - recipient data (POSSIBLY GPS etc included) - paid fees Aside of any human-readable information. That's might simplify shipping process much and allow quicker operation between different countries address formats having a "QR generators platform" who take care of the differences up front. For instance generating proper human-readable addresses for both sender and recipient locations according to local postal service rules.
ChrisArchitect 4y ago
In the stamp world this must be significant news no? Or has some other country already implemented this? The swap out thing is a bit weird and clunky -- I mean, who's paying attention to this. Gonna have to be a major PR campaign about it.

81 points by admp 4y ago

At the top: > The barcodes will enable exciting new services by connecting physical stamps to the digital world through the Royal Mail app Then in the FAQ > Why are you adding barcodes to stamps? > > The move is part of the Company’s extensive and ongoing modernisation drive and will allow the unique barcodes to facilitate operational efficiencies, enable the introduction of added security features and pave the way for innovative services for customers. I wish companies would be honest in the plain language, and avoid phrases like "facilitate operational efficiencies". "The barcodes will prevent fraud" would be fine. (People sell counterfeit or used stamps on eBay. The first result is [2], on sale for £9.99 with a face value of £80. Royal Mail's own site even says "Counterfeit stamps are often sold in quantities of 55..." [3]. Obviously eBay have a "policy" against this, and obviously they don't enforce it [4].) [2] https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/284986420186 https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/284986420186 [3] https://personal.help.royalmail.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/14308/~/what-is-stamp-fraud%3F https://personal.help.royalmail.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/... [4] https://www.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/prohibited-restricted-items/stamps-policy?id=5043 https://www.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/prohibited-restricted-i...

Symbiote 4y ago
"Any person importing, distributing, selling or otherwise assisting in the sale of counterfeit stamps is committing offences of fraud and/or counterfeiting" [1] I am surprised there are so many listed on eBay. Just the two "sponsored" listings on eBay for the search "first class stamps" have already sold over £1000 of counterfeit stamps, and about £20 in fees for eBay. [1] https://personal.help.royalmail.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/14308 https://personal.help.royalmail.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/...
- Syonyk 4y ago
  > I am surprised there are so many listed on eBay. I'm not. They make money from it, just like Amazon makes money from the counterfeiters, scammers, and fraudulent sellers. Google has plenty of ads for fake stamps if you search for stamps - they're about the only ones you'll find ads for. Someone will write an article that gets traction talking about the vibrant market for fake stamps on eBay and Google, and they'll issue the Standard Tech Apology, "We are so, so sorry you caught us doing this and we will try harder to avoid you catching us doing it in the future," they'll clamp down for a few months, and then will quietly ignore the rise in the profitable listings again after the attention dies down. People selling fake products are great ad buyers. They have to bid high enough to be placed ahead of "organic" results and legitimate stuff, and if they get caught, you can keep their money per the terms and agreements and such.
- adolph 4y ago
  The surprising part is that people go to such effort for such a low value commodity. Who is sending 1k worth of Christmas cards etc? Maybe small biz, but again the value added doesn’t seem to match the risk of getting your model train outfit raised by the postal inspector. Maybe anarchists use these exclusively to avoid paying the man?
  - Fezzik 4y ago
    Just a random example: I’m involved a bit in the Magic: The Gathering resale market and I know plenty of unscrupulous sellers who would gladly buy fake stamps to send their merchandise if it would save them even a few cents on every sale. Postage adds up when you’re shipping hundreds or thousands of envelopes in a low margin, competitive market. And I imagine there are lots of other collectable and re-sale markets with similarly principled people.
    - adolph 4y ago
      I hear you and that is why I added the hypothetical small biz shipping model train parts. A visit by the postal inspector would really ruin a low margin biz. Likewise, I suppose a postal service must weigh the cost/benefit of pursuing counterfeit stamps--it might not be costly enough compared to other forms of problems.
  - Gigachad 4y ago
    Many small eBay sales are shipped as letters. Fake stamps would save you a fortune.
  - electroly 4y ago
    In the US you can use stamps for Priority Mail packages; they're not just for letters! My dad does this when he sends packages because he can get (legitimate) bulk postage at odd denominations for less than face value. You can use more postage than will physically fit on the box; more postage can go into a shipping label pouch. I imagine the stamps get used up a lot faster when you're shipping packages with it. A tip to anyone wanting to get into this: legitimate bulk postage is sold by the pound!
p1necone 4y ago
Is it to stop counterfeiting? It could literally just be so that stamps can be scanned automatically to check whether they are the right denomination, which squares up with "facilitate operational efficiencies". Is "added security features" really less clear than "prevent fraud"? The barcode would only be useful to prevent counterfeiting if each stamp had a unique barcode that could be invalidated once used, but the linked page doesn't say whether or not that is the case.
- danuker 4y ago
  > to check whether they are the right denomination This is a trivial problem compared to handwriting OCR going on in some post offices in the world, and does not require barcodes.
  - p1necone 4y ago
    It is possible that the lower CPU time scanning barcodes vs scanning color images and detecting the stamp is a big enough optimization to be worth it at scale.
    - londons_explore 4y ago
      The old stamps already had machine readable UV markers to mark their money value.
barbazoo 4y ago
If they're unique, and they better be, maybe that'll allow for tracking by default.
jcrawfordor 4y ago
My guess is that one of the biggest motivations is to enable one-time address digitization. I'm only really familiar with USPS but my understanding is that the Royal Mail Mailmark system is largely similar to the USPS IMB system. Bulk mailers have long been required to barcode mail with destination information to reduce the need to OCR addresses, which is a particularly complex and expensive part of the operation. Non-bulk mail actually gets barcoded by an inline printer in the sorting machine after the first time it is OCRd, to avoid the need to OCR it again later in handling. Well, that's the case in the US. From what I can tell Royal Mail doesn't currently do this, and so they're going to have to OCR the address repeatedly on all non-bulk items. At this point, putting a unique barcode on the stamp and then associating it with the destination in an online database is probably much cheaper for them to roll out than adding barcode printing to their sorting equipment. And it provides counterfeiting and fraud resistance, along with the ability to add detailed tracking to letters very cheaply.
- TMWNN 4y ago
  >And it provides counterfeiting and fraud resistance, along with the ability to add detailed tracking to letters very cheaply. Yes, this is what I was curious about. (For non-Americans' benefit: All USPS shipping is tracked with barcodes, except for stamped mail. USPS offering this would benefit merchants who would be able to ship very small/thin items in envelopes with tracking, and people in general who want to be able to follow their stamped letters' progress.)
- tialaramex 4y ago
  > Well, that's the case in the US. From what I can tell Royal Mail doesn't currently do this, and so they're going to have to OCR the address repeatedly on all non-bulk items. Take a closer look at the bottom right hand edge of some non-bulk mail. Huh, those are some faint orange lines. What's going on? That's RM4SCC encoded data from the sorting machinery. It's not "really" faint orange, that's a fluorescent ink, inside the machine under appropriate lighting rather than the faint orange these lines show up very nicely. They're encoding (2 bits per line) a unique identifier so the system can track every individual piece of mail for a few weeks, plus its Delivery Point destination. [I would guess "faint orange" was chosen because it's unobtrusive, yet you can't honestly claim it's hiding] After the initial OCR run, later machines just see "Oh, #238205724145, still headed for 18 Long Drive, AB12 34XZ" without needing OCR and then people at a higher level can ask e.g. why the fuck is there so much mail handled by this Glasgow sorting office and find that aha, some bozo has directed all the mail for Swansea via this office, what a buffoon, we'll fix that. Probably if you're murder police, you could get Royal Mail to scan it and tell you this crucial envelope entered their system at about 12:30 on September 24th in Liverpool central office, and it was eventually given to a human to deliver at 08:47 last Tuesday, but I'd guess this is rarely useful and it's not something they will tell random members of the public. The Delivery Point is redundant if you're a human since the address is printed in human readable letters.
jawns 4y ago
Above the FAQ: > Our new barcoded stamps also enable you to watch and share exclusive Shaun the Sheep videos via the barcode itself, using the Royal Mail App. Initially I thought operational efficiencies and fraud prevention were the likely reasons, but oh hey look there's a marketing angle too.
bvm 4y ago
"Counterfeit stamps are often sold in quantities of 55..." I wonder why this is? Surely it would be relatively easy for a counterfeiter to sell them in quantities of 50 instead.
- Symbiote 4y ago
  It shows how useless eBay is in policing their own site. Assuming (as reported) the stamps are produced in China and Turkey, it would be very easy for the counterfeit sellers in the UK to simply cut off 5 stamps from each sheet, removing this obvious signal to eBay.
melony 4y ago
Did the recession chase away the crypto folks and blockchain evangelists? They usually would have crawled out of the woodwork by now promoting their favorite product.

HuangYuSan 4y ago

I see a barcode without bars but ok

regularespresso 4y ago
They are small, square bars of equal width and height, arranged in a pleasingly grid-like grid. Thank you.
hoppyhoppy2 4y ago
More of a squarescode.
rippercushions 4y ago
Does anybody know which standard they're using? It's not either of the common 2D codes, namely QR Code or PDF417, and while it looks a bit like Data Matrix, AFAIK those are always square.
- garrettgrimsley 4y ago
  It appears to be 2D Mailmark Type 29 https://www.royalmail.com/sites/default/files/Royal-Mail-Mailmark-barcode-definition-document-September-2015.pdf https://www.royalmail.com/sites/default/files/Royal-Mail-Mai...
  - jcrawfordor 4y ago
    It is Data Matrix, Mailmark is basically a logical standard on top of Data Matrix ECC200. Data Matrix allows the blocks to be arranged in multiple layouts, square or rectangular.
    - garrettgrimsley 4y ago
      Yes, it is accurate to say that all Mailmark barcodes are Data Matrix, but not all Data Matrix are Mailmark. In the document I linked they explain the specifics of the logical standard you mention. The US Postal Service also uses a DataMatrix on some of their stamps, but not all. I just looked up an official specification document for the USPS codes, but couldn't find it. I did find this page dedicated to postal barcodes. It looks like the USPS ones may more accurately be called IBI Lite? https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/United_States_Postage_Meter_Stamp_Catalog/GROUP_Q_%E2%80%93_Digital_stamps_with_2D_barcode https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/United_States_Postage_Meter_St... Can anyone chime in with the security measures present on non-barcoded stamps? I have a Global Forever Stamp on the desk in front of me, and there's nothing that is visible to the naked-eye. While we're on the subject of barcodes and shipping, check out MaxiCode! I've scanned hundreds of thousands of those little bulls-eyes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MaxiCode https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MaxiCode

MarchKilroy89 4y ago

Translation: Keeping with our effort to turn this country into more of a Panopticon, and aligned with our belief that no two parties should be able to communicate privately, we hate that you can send mail mostly anonymously, and this gives us a bit more power to surveil you by making stamps unique.

scrollaway 4y ago
If you're going to make this claim, at least give a reasonable explanation as to how this deanonymisation works. Otherwise your comment is no better than "they're putting microchips in the vaccines" junk.
- MarchKilroy89 4y ago
  A simple scenario that comes to mind is that given a letter, it's now easier to tie it back to the stamp's point of sale. "Who purchased this stamp?" is a very hard question to answer in their current (essentially fungible) form. Adding barcodes makes this much easier. This assumes that stamps are scanned when sold, to tie their barcodes to the purchaser. That may happen. It may not. But clearly the more scans a stamp gets increases the tracking resolution for a given piece of mail both after AND before mailing. This "before mailing" part is new and opens the door for a much higher level of surveillance.
  - MarchKilroy89 4y ago
    To give a real world example: Imagine if America had a system like this in place when the Zodiac killer was active in California. A prolific writer of letters to the press, all of Zodiac's barcode-stamped envelopes would open up new potential leads in answering questions like "when was this stamp manufactured" and "where was this stamp originally sold".
    - woodruffw 4y ago
      While I actually do appreciate the importance of postal anonymity, the Zodiac Killer is maybe not the best example to select.

throwaway892238 4y ago

"Why are you adding barcodes to stamps?" "The move is part of the Company’s extensive and ongoing modernisation drive and will allow the unique barcodes to facilitate operational efficiencies, enable the introduction of added security features and pave the way for innovative services for customers." Answer my question without answering my question.

Gigachad 4y ago
It’s pretty clear. It’s primarily to prevent fraud. The security feature is the letters can now be scanned and the number can be checked on an online system to check it is a valid stamp which has not been used before. The second part seems to suggest they could add extra functions on like letting you track letter delivery as you would a parcel.

neilpanchal 4y ago

For those who are curious, these are 2DID Datamatrix codes, also used in the semiconductor industry extensively to mark wafers and chips. If you pick up an Intel CPU, its going to have a couple of tiny datamatrix codes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Matrix https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Matrix

Someone1234 4y ago
If anyone was curious why Data Matrix instead of QR Code this article goes into detail: https://www.laserax.com/blog/data-matrix-vs-qr-codes https://www.laserax.com/blog/data-matrix-vs-qr-codes Looks like Data Matrix has higher error correction (per size) and better data density (at every size). QR Code has a higher theoretical storage capacity, larger maximum size, and multi-byte data support (rather than limited to alphanumeric), none of which applies to this use case though. It also looks like that Data Matrix may work with a lower contrast than QR Code. Both can be read from any angle. Honestly, purely from a technical standpoint, the biggest arguments for QR Codes is their popularity/adoption, and things like that you can stylize the code itself. Maybe I need to do more research, but on the face of it Data Matrix looks like it is technically superior.
- jillesvangurp 4y ago
  I think the only relevant thing about any kind of scannable code is reliability. QR Codes are widely used and seem to work fine with just about any smart phone. So, they are good enough. Maybe Data Matrix is slightly easier to scan. But it's not really a problem with QR Codes.
  - ale42 4y ago
    But AFAIK you can't do non-square QR codes. Plus, at small sizes, you lose a lot of space for the alignment marks.
    - jillesvangurp 4y ago
      If that matters to you, then yes that's a limitation. However, big qr codes are easier to scan. Making them smaller requires higher resolution scanning devices and more careful aiming of the device. So, it's not necessarily that big of a deal. The alignment marks are scaled along with the qr code. So, they don't use more space for smaller codes. The shape limitation is more of an esthetic thing. I don't think people care that much.

pabs3 4y ago

What is a good tool for decoding these barcodes? Neither zbar nor zxing-cpp seem to be able to decode the DataMatrix image on Wikipedia.

moring 4y ago
What did the error correction report -- is it valid on a byte level? They might use a new highlevel encoding, but I doubt it, and they are certainly not re-inventing the error correction level. This stuff is hard math and there is no value in re-inventing that. The higher level might be encrypted to prevent fraud, but that would show as valid on the error correction level. Other than that, my first guess is that the image shown there is not an actual data matrix code but a fake image made for the web site. On a second thought, they might have used a simple pseudo-encryption (read: security through obscurity) on a lower level, such as flipping the inner pixels. But then again, this means you cannot use standard tools for anything, so I doubt it.
- pabs3 4y ago
  Trying to decode the DataMatrix image on Wikipedia just says no barcode found.

mikelward 4y ago

Not in the FAQ: "If this is so important, why don't these changes apply to special stamps?" and "You're designing new stamps, but you're putting the Late Queen on them, not the new King?"

londons_explore 4y ago
Fraud levels on special stamps are still low. And because lots of people have collections if special stamps and would baulk if they all became unusable. Don't worry, they'll add barcodes on those too when fraud switches to them. Royal mail is a slow company... They'll take a long time to update the design.
maratc 4y ago
Also not in the FAQ: "I'm 90 years old and I don't know what 'download an app' or 'fill the form online' even mean. Provided you don't swap stamps at the post office, what you suggest me to do?" But these won't even read this online-only announcement, so I guess ... screw them.
- bear8642 4y ago
  >online-only It's printed on envelopes recently arrived currently. That's how I heard about this
  - maratc 4y ago
    It could be that the announcement on the envelopes had some "off-line" instructions; this (online) announcement has none.
- andrewaylett 4y ago
  We got a form through our letterbox with our post yesterday -- I'm assuming that the OP also got one, and that's why we're seeing the news here today.
DocTomoe 4y ago
I would expect them to make more money selling special stamps to collectors (who then quickly make them disappear without ever using them) than they make by delivering mail. Better not disturb a business line like that.

Zamicol 4y ago

What information is being encoded in the QR code? Any details on the size of the barcode payload?

moring 4y ago
If the picture is an actual code used (BTW it's a data matrix, not QR, you can tell by the solid L / dotted L outline): The code has 48x16 pixels. Subtract the outlines (solid) / timers (dotted), that's 44x14 = 616 bits. IIRC error correction takes around 1/4 of that, leaving 462 bits or 57 ASCII characters.

ZiiS 4y ago

Seems very quick deprecation? If they urgently need the barcode why support picture stamps without it. If the don't then supporting both for a year will dramatically reduce the amount of swapping they need to do.

blitzar 4y ago
They have already been supporting both for a while. Presumably they would like to go 100% to the new workflow in their sorting centres. A longer swap period means more expensive equipment sat there doing nothing or longer period of time supporting two different workflows. Also the distribution of stamps held; people who post a lot - 0 swaps needed. People who hoard - have multiple years supply. People who dont post often at all but have stamps sat around - 10 years supply assuming you can find where that 10 pack of stamps is. 6-12 months to restock all outlets and have companies wind down their supplies of old stamps, and a good amount of time to test the new workflow on an increasing volume, while still being able to back off if the system blows up.
Symbiote 4y ago
The new stamps were introduced in February this year, and the old ones expire at the end of January next year.
- ZiiS 4y ago
  That makes much more sense; "We’re adding barcodes to our regular stamps" is not a super clear way of saying "We added barcodes to our stamps over 7 months ago". I guess not having bought stamps in that time dose mean I am not really the target market.
Double_a_92 4y ago
There are huge amounts of fake regular stamps being sold on e.g. eBay. I guess the damage those cause, is higher than the costs of the swapping.

jbverschoor 4y ago

In NL you can just buy a 9 letter code, write it on your envelope, and you’re fine. No need for any stamps

elcritch 4y ago
Wait so the NL's have had NFT's this whole time? I need to collect a few of these before they take off! ;)
nafest 4y ago
Possible in Germany as well. Really handy as you don’t need a printer.

londons_explore 4y ago

There are so many features royal mail could add to letter/parcel delivery that users might want to pay for, and would cost them nothing. Eg. * See what mail is headed your way. They could have email/text/app notifications of mail that's headed towards you, including a picture of the outside of the parcel and estimated delivery dates/times. * The ability for the receiver to pay to prioritize incoming mail. Sometimes you're sent something with slow second class mail, but then realise you really need it urgently, so could pay to 'upgrade' to express service. * Auto upgrade all mail headed to you if you buy stuff online and hate businesses that send stuff with cheap shipping. * Perhaps an x-ray service so you can see inside parcels - would be handy for businesses that do returns who need to check the real goods are headed their way. * Super express services. Pay £500 and we'll dispatch an employee direct to your address with the parcel, and it'll take the driving time plus 10 minutes. Operationally it's only the same as the employee going home sick midday. * One off redirect services. 'I'm at work today, send my parcel there'. * Allow adding delay. 'Im on holiday, don't deliver any mail for me this week, I don't want someone breaking into my house to steal it'. * Allow binning a letter before it even arrives - for spam and junkmail. Maybe have automated spam filters which can be enabled (and binned items can be held for a while before being actually destroyed in case of classification error). * Allow understanding names of people at your address - eg. "Return to sender any mail addressed to Fred Smith, he no longer lives at my house" * Notifications that the postman is 5 minutes away and has something too large for a regular letterbox. That means the postman won't have to wait so long after ringing the doorbell. * "Letter to email" service. If you ask, they open the envelope and scan and email you a pdf of the contents. Then you get the info faster, and is also helpful for people away from home, businesses that need a mailing address but have no employees to deal with mail, etc. All of these services would be free/cheap to implement, and each could be a chargable service that earns the company money.

nicky0 4y ago
Brilliant. If I was looking to hire an ideas guy I would have you.
- londons_explore 4y ago

londons_explore 4y ago

To the HN crowd... This is the risk of any kind of token that has no expiration date. If whatever security measures you have in place ever get broken (watermarks, holograms, digital signatures, etc), then you have a big problem. And no security feature available today will be secure forever. So your company or government should never issue digital or real tokens that last forever.

kioleanu 4y ago

The german post did this last year for the physical stamps - the electronic stamps already had a code. This way, you get some tracking, but the only advtange is that you can see when your letter was automatically processed in a center, the postpeople don't scan normal letters

ryzvonusef 4y ago

> Can I take my stamps to the Post Office to swap them out? > No — you can't swap your non-barcoded stamps out at a Post Office. You will need to pick up a 'Swap Out' form and send in your non-barcoded stamps to Royal Mail (free post address on the form). Print one off our web site; contact Customer Experience and we'll post one out to you; pick one up from your local Delivery Offices' Customer Service Point. > Please note swap out forms are not available at Post Offices. This is batshit stupid. What's the point of a post office if it can't help you with stamps?

londons_explore 4y ago
Post offices are an independent business from royal mail. So they generally want to be paid for every service they offer, and I guess royal mail doesn't want to pay the fee. Also, this swapout is in part to eliminate fraudulent stamps. The post office won't have the necessary high tech equipment to separate the real stamps from the (very good) fakes.
daveoc64 4y ago
Since privatisation, the Post Office is a separate company to Royal Mail. While the Post Office does sell a lot of Royal Mail products, there are some that the Post Office has deemed unprofitable, and as such, the Post Office has nothing to do with.
FridayoLeary 4y ago
It is stupid. Many things that were once trivial to do in a post office now have extra hurdles.
- fy20 4y ago
  Not stupid, it was very profitable for some of the Conservative Party MPs and their buddies who allowed it to be privatised.

mbtwl 4y ago

German mail system got rid of the need for stamps a while ago. Using this ever since. You can buy a stamp via app and the stamp is just a code you write with pen on the letter. Link unfortunately in German: https://www.paketda.de/frankieren/mobile-briefmarke.html https://www.paketda.de/frankieren/mobile-briefmarke.html

ale42 4y ago
Swiss post has a similar thing, you can buy a stamp (on the form of a 9-letter code) via SMS. Never used but seems it works. No barcodes for regular stamps for now, but datamatrix barcodes are used since more than 15 years for bulk mail and print-at-home stamps.

c120 4y ago

While there's currently no den date for the swap, I'm pretty sure there will be one in a few years and then all stamps from stamp collections world wide will be worthless. European countries did the same when the Euro came and they made a ton of money by being able to devaluate all stamp collections... (you have to consider that stamp collection was a huge thing but now is no longer so that when stamp collectors die many collections enter the market...)

speps 4y ago
This is stupid, many stamps in a stamp collections won't be able to be used to actually send any post anyway. Do you have any source to your claims?

kkfx 4y ago

I think it's more interesting asking for a (large) Qr code who encode: - sender data - recipient data (POSSIBLY GPS etc included) - paid fees Aside of any human-readable information. That's might simplify shipping process much and allow quicker operation between different countries address formats having a "QR generators platform" who take care of the differences up front. For instance generating proper human-readable addresses for both sender and recipient locations according to local postal service rules.

ChrisArchitect 4y ago

In the stamp world this must be significant news no? Or has some other country already implemented this? The swap out thing is a bit weird and clunky -- I mean, who's paying attention to this. Gonna have to be a major PR campaign about it.