5 ms·

That is a lot of effort to complain about SQlite's Code of Conduct.

anoonmoose 4y ago
I mean. I was definitely unfamiliar with their "Code of Ethics" [0] until I read it and I cannot say that I'm a tremendous fan. But also, it's the absolute last thing mentioned in the readme, so unless you have additional information that I don't, I don't know why you think that's the main reason they forked, especially when they tell you all the reasons they forked and that isn't really one of them. [0] https://sqlite.org/codeofethics.html https://sqlite.org/codeofethics.html
- chasil 4y ago
  It was described yesterday as content extracted from St. Benedict's Rules for Monasteries (which is a much larger book). I read it years ago, but cannot confirm.
- pexabit 4y ago
  He goes out of his way to mention something peculiar despite its non-relevance to the technical features of the project, and does so again on a Medium post introducing the fork. In fact the only interesting said at all is about the code. (As to DRH's Code of Ethics... well, the product speaks for itself.)
  - threatofrain 4y ago
    The sum of all things speaks for itself. We have an excellent product and a written statement about how all current developers are bound by a religious covenant. And no contributors accepted. If you want to create a fork and welcome lots of contributors, then I don't see how the CoC as written would stand. Of course this has to change. > That is a lot of effort to complain about SQlite's Code of Conduct. Anyways, given that the super-majority of the blog post was about features and the different directions that sqlite is being pulled in, and the only singular mention of the CoC was a paragraph at the very end of the blog, I don't really see the summarization of the blog post as just about the CoC as honest.
- treis 4y ago
  This is one of those things that's not really a huge in of itself in that it doesn't have much practical implications. But it's such a wildly inappropriate and unprofessional thing to do that it raises questions in my mind about using SqlLite. Which is a pretty impressive thing to do given how good the software is and how widely it's used.
  - haunter 4y ago
    Why is it inappropriate? A lot of OSS projects make political statements all the time, I see no difference at all
    - treis 4y ago
      I dispute that they do but regardless a political statement is not the same thing as a profession of religious tenets.
      - freedomben 4y ago
        It's certainly unusual, but all it's saying is that the founder and current dev team hold those religious tenets. It's (explicitly even) not forcing it on others.
        treis 4y ago
        Wearing a polka dot bowtie is unusual. This crosses the line into being inappropriate for a workplace. It should be obvious why, but if not consider a future where the SQLite team needs to replace a member. What's the plan if the best candidate is an Orthodox Jew? Are they going to update the CoE to read: >The founder of SQLite and all current developers, except for Ruth Cohen, have pledged... Even if they're the nicest and most welcoming Christians in the world and will make a better change without hesitation it's still presents a disincentive for non-Christians. There's simply no place for that in any professional setting.
        throwawaywu 4y ago
kjeetgill 4y ago
Wow, they took the time to lay out a project roadmap for you and features they're interested in and that's all you took from it? A single, minor mention of it at the end?
- Kwpolska 4y ago
  The project is a buzzword bingo roadmap (Rust! WASM! io_uring! Distributed databases!), a new CoC and license, and zero new code. No new code means I can’t take it seriously and I doubt they will ever deliver.
robomartin 4y ago
> SQlite's Code of Conduct Well, I had never seen that before. As an atheist that was quite a, well, revelation. I am not militant in any way and have a generally lax stance about these things. For example, I have had believer friends ask if they could pray over me when I was going through rough times. My response was "I would be honored". No sense being a complete asshole when someone offers something out of love. The rules page includes this: > No one is required to follow The Rule, to know The Rule, or even to think that The Rule is a good idea. > The Founder of SQLite believes that anyone who follows The Rule will live a happier and more productive life, but individuals are free to dispute or ignore that advice if they wish. In other words, for me, very much my stance with regards to religious belief (or not). It's a "live and let live" position. Something I sometimes feel is sorely needed in today's hatred/outrage-first society.
- threatofrain 4y ago
  Yes but the sqlite CoC also says that it's a covenant between all current developers and their users, and for any project seeking contributions that's going to make people consider things. If you were a user, then well, you're a user, so enjoy the one-way covenant. But if you're a developer and an atheist as you say, then I don't see how that covenant as worded would stand. I see this as similar to a company that says while all its current employees pledge themselves to a religious covenant, it has never discriminated against anyone on the basis of religious faith; and yet all current employees make that pledge. If in fact the wording on the completeness of the covenant is in error, it should be easy enough to point out a sqlite developer who does not make this pledge.
  - freedomben 4y ago
    > for any project seeking contributions that's going to make people consider things. SQLite isn't and doesn't claim to be seeking contributions, so it seems to me that the existing CoC covers 100% of the surface area. If they started seeking contributions, I would agree that they should consider expanding the CoC. Also, I think it's good to note that the CoC doesn't say that asshole-ish stuff will be tolerated. It's simply quiet on that. I would guess that (much like the vast majority of projects before the Contributor Covenant came about) they would not permit that sort of thing to occur, particularly given the values they've already expressed.
ploppyploppy 4y ago
Activist arseholes forcing their "cancel culture" on others if anything remotely related to pro-western ideas of religion or philosophy doesn't bend to their authoritarian whim. I for one think the Code of Conduct in SQLite is excellent.

I mean. I was definitely unfamiliar with their "Code of Ethics" [0] until I read it and I cannot say that I'm a tremendous fan. But also, it's the absolute last thing mentioned in the readme, so unless you have additional information that I don't, I don't know why you think that's the main reason they forked, especially when they tell you all the reasons they forked and that isn't really one of them. [0] https://sqlite.org/codeofethics.html https://sqlite.org/codeofethics.html

chasil 4y ago
It was described yesterday as content extracted from St. Benedict's Rules for Monasteries (which is a much larger book). I read it years ago, but cannot confirm.
pexabit 4y ago
He goes out of his way to mention something peculiar despite its non-relevance to the technical features of the project, and does so again on a Medium post introducing the fork. In fact the only interesting said at all is about the code. (As to DRH's Code of Ethics... well, the product speaks for itself.)
- threatofrain 4y ago
  The sum of all things speaks for itself. We have an excellent product and a written statement about how all current developers are bound by a religious covenant. And no contributors accepted. If you want to create a fork and welcome lots of contributors, then I don't see how the CoC as written would stand. Of course this has to change. > That is a lot of effort to complain about SQlite's Code of Conduct. Anyways, given that the super-majority of the blog post was about features and the different directions that sqlite is being pulled in, and the only singular mention of the CoC was a paragraph at the very end of the blog, I don't really see the summarization of the blog post as just about the CoC as honest.
treis 4y ago
This is one of those things that's not really a huge in of itself in that it doesn't have much practical implications. But it's such a wildly inappropriate and unprofessional thing to do that it raises questions in my mind about using SqlLite. Which is a pretty impressive thing to do given how good the software is and how widely it's used.
- haunter 4y ago
  Why is it inappropriate? A lot of OSS projects make political statements all the time, I see no difference at all
  - treis 4y ago
    I dispute that they do but regardless a political statement is not the same thing as a profession of religious tenets.
    - freedomben 4y ago
      It's certainly unusual, but all it's saying is that the founder and current dev team hold those religious tenets. It's (explicitly even) not forcing it on others.
      - treis 4y ago
        Wearing a polka dot bowtie is unusual. This crosses the line into being inappropriate for a workplace. It should be obvious why, but if not consider a future where the SQLite team needs to replace a member. What's the plan if the best candidate is an Orthodox Jew? Are they going to update the CoE to read: >The founder of SQLite and all current developers, except for Ruth Cohen, have pledged... Even if they're the nicest and most welcoming Christians in the world and will make a better change without hesitation it's still presents a disincentive for non-Christians. There's simply no place for that in any professional setting.
        throwawaywu 4y ago

kjeetgill 4y ago

Wow, they took the time to lay out a project roadmap for you and features they're interested in and that's all you took from it? A single, minor mention of it at the end?

Kwpolska 4y ago
The project is a buzzword bingo roadmap (Rust! WASM! io_uring! Distributed databases!), a new CoC and license, and zero new code. No new code means I can’t take it seriously and I doubt they will ever deliver.

robomartin 4y ago

> SQlite's Code of Conduct Well, I had never seen that before. As an atheist that was quite a, well, revelation. I am not militant in any way and have a generally lax stance about these things. For example, I have had believer friends ask if they could pray over me when I was going through rough times. My response was "I would be honored". No sense being a complete asshole when someone offers something out of love. The rules page includes this: > No one is required to follow The Rule, to know The Rule, or even to think that The Rule is a good idea. > The Founder of SQLite believes that anyone who follows The Rule will live a happier and more productive life, but individuals are free to dispute or ignore that advice if they wish. In other words, for me, very much my stance with regards to religious belief (or not). It's a "live and let live" position. Something I sometimes feel is sorely needed in today's hatred/outrage-first society.

threatofrain 4y ago
Yes but the sqlite CoC also says that it's a covenant between all current developers and their users, and for any project seeking contributions that's going to make people consider things. If you were a user, then well, you're a user, so enjoy the one-way covenant. But if you're a developer and an atheist as you say, then I don't see how that covenant as worded would stand. I see this as similar to a company that says while all its current employees pledge themselves to a religious covenant, it has never discriminated against anyone on the basis of religious faith; and yet all current employees make that pledge. If in fact the wording on the completeness of the covenant is in error, it should be easy enough to point out a sqlite developer who does not make this pledge.
- freedomben 4y ago
  > for any project seeking contributions that's going to make people consider things. SQLite isn't and doesn't claim to be seeking contributions, so it seems to me that the existing CoC covers 100% of the surface area. If they started seeking contributions, I would agree that they should consider expanding the CoC. Also, I think it's good to note that the CoC doesn't say that asshole-ish stuff will be tolerated. It's simply quiet on that. I would guess that (much like the vast majority of projects before the Contributor Covenant came about) they would not permit that sort of thing to occur, particularly given the values they've already expressed.

ploppyploppy 4y ago

Activist arseholes forcing their "cancel culture" on others if anything remotely related to pro-western ideas of religion or philosophy doesn't bend to their authoritarian whim. I for one think the Code of Conduct in SQLite is excellent.