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The skeptic in me wonders to what extent this is due to strengthening of labour laws in China; if India's labor laws are relatively weaker, and it provides bett

by bmer 4y ago

The skeptic in me wonders to what extent this is due to strengthening of labour laws in China; if India's labor laws are relatively weaker, and it provides better optics (a "democracy"!) then that might explain Apple's move? I don't know enough about the situation, but this is just a thought that comes to mind.

malshe 4y ago
Why did you write democracy in quotes?
- shadeslayer_ 4y ago
  Because India is not a democracy :)
  - malshe 4y ago
    Explain how it is not a democracy.
    - eldaisfish 4y ago
      India is an electoral autocracy. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-56393944 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-56393944 The most robust part of India's "democracy" is its voting system which is among the most accessible in the world and is likely one of the best in the world. By all other metrics and measures, India is a feudal state where laws are great on paper but terrible otherwise. People should - rightfully so - be wary of labelling India a democracy.
      - valarauko 4y ago
        That's the assessment of an NGO, which may have some merit to it, and maybe not. To quote the same article, > Prof Mukherjee says most non-academics would be incredulous that a handful of research assistants and country experts get to decide that a country is an "electoral autocracy" while hundreds of millions of that country's citizens would disagree. > "So really this is an instance of academic discourse and concepts operating at a considerable distance from lived experience. The operational concepts across the two domains are very different."
      - malshe 4y ago
        > India is an electoral autocracy. You forgot to write that it is according to "Sweden-based V-Dem Institute."
      - bergenty 4y ago
        It’s probably the most robust democracy on earth. Voter participation is extremely high and voter fraud is shockingly low.
      - csomar 4y ago
        This is not specific to India. India is a poor democracy and that does not solve the compliance issue (either from companies or civil servants). But it's still a democracy, although an awkward one.
      - laxmin 4y ago
        The problem is in defining Democracy.
      - shubhamkrm 4y ago
        Lol. This coming from an NGO based in a country with a hereditary head of state. Pot, meet kettle
    - sfe22 4y ago
      Democracy means people rule. India has rulers afaik.
      - malshe 4y ago
        > India has rulers afaik. That means you know nothing. List a few Indian rulers for us please.
        spaceman_2020 4y ago
        To be fair, anyone living in India knows that elected officials are largely above the law and live like feudal lords.
        nmridul 4y ago
        but they are elected and can be replaced. You can see people using their rights to replace government (both national and state). Also reduce or increase their mandate over the years.
        sfe22 4y ago
        A king is replaceable too, whats your point. I did not make this claim.
  - bharathyes 4y ago
    No country is a true democracy nor just that. Every country claiming democracy it an amalgamation of various ideas mixed in varying percentage. India is a parliamentary democratic secular republic with socialism also thrown in. Most of these ideas are overlapping but also has slighly differing paths. It is difficult to even agree on one precise definition on what each of these are without a debate ensuing.
ktta 4y ago
India's labor laws are pretty strong, and that's the only reason why it was put off till now. Infact, take a look at this: https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/wistron-violence-what-exactly-happened-at-karnataka-apple-plant/story-QJgFDbyPKCSUECw6sb7QIP.html https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/wistron-violence-w... That wouldn't have happened in China, and it was actually a detractor for additional manufacturing to be done in India. I believe this push is not for additional cost cutting but to avoid the tariffs placed on imported goods.
marianatom 4y ago
Nothing of the sort; it's due to the worsening condition to run a business in China, namely the abrupt shutdown of electricity to factories, abrupt covid shutdown of factories and loss of output while still needing to pay out wages, and worsening economic conditions. you can see some of that in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPptD2eBgwo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPptD2eBgwo. In this video, a factory owner complains of an abrupt and unannounced electricity halt leading to machinery stopping in mid operation, and another factory owner crying that she has paid out 1M in wages after having to take a 3M loan out, and having so much unsold inventory.
- John23832 4y ago
  Eh. You can’t really say that because those (electricity and Covid shut downs) are short term disruptions. Apple is not moving suppliers on short term disruptions.
et-al 4y ago
I don't think that's being overly skeptical. It's been known that as labor prices increase, companies move factories to cheaper locations. Seam-sealed technical jackets used to be made in China, but now they're made in Vietnam. If prices in Vietnam rise to a certain point, companies will look at less developed countries. But to ktta's point, another reason Apple did this was to minimize the Indian tariffs.
spaceman_2020 4y ago
India’s labor laws are actually a massive deterrent to most large scale manufacturing. One of the perils of a democratic setup is that people are free to assemble themselves into labor unions. India has a strong culture of labor organization which often stops reforms and investment. I’m personally on the fence about this. Its easy to demonize labor unions when you’re outside that particular labor force, but my family has witnessed the importance of labor organization first hand, and I understand how crucial they can be to prop up labor interests.
thwoeiruoi234 4y ago
[flagged]

by bmer 4y ago

malshe 4y ago

Why did you write democracy in quotes?

shadeslayer_ 4y ago
Because India is not a democracy :)
- malshe 4y ago
  Explain how it is not a democracy.
  - eldaisfish 4y ago
    India is an electoral autocracy. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-56393944 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-56393944 The most robust part of India's "democracy" is its voting system which is among the most accessible in the world and is likely one of the best in the world. By all other metrics and measures, India is a feudal state where laws are great on paper but terrible otherwise. People should - rightfully so - be wary of labelling India a democracy.
    - valarauko 4y ago
      That's the assessment of an NGO, which may have some merit to it, and maybe not. To quote the same article, > Prof Mukherjee says most non-academics would be incredulous that a handful of research assistants and country experts get to decide that a country is an "electoral autocracy" while hundreds of millions of that country's citizens would disagree. > "So really this is an instance of academic discourse and concepts operating at a considerable distance from lived experience. The operational concepts across the two domains are very different."
    - malshe 4y ago
      > India is an electoral autocracy. You forgot to write that it is according to "Sweden-based V-Dem Institute."
    - bergenty 4y ago
      It’s probably the most robust democracy on earth. Voter participation is extremely high and voter fraud is shockingly low.
    - csomar 4y ago
      This is not specific to India. India is a poor democracy and that does not solve the compliance issue (either from companies or civil servants). But it's still a democracy, although an awkward one.
    - laxmin 4y ago
      The problem is in defining Democracy.
    - shubhamkrm 4y ago
      Lol. This coming from an NGO based in a country with a hereditary head of state. Pot, meet kettle
  - sfe22 4y ago
    Democracy means people rule. India has rulers afaik.
    - malshe 4y ago
      > India has rulers afaik. That means you know nothing. List a few Indian rulers for us please.
      - spaceman_2020 4y ago
        To be fair, anyone living in India knows that elected officials are largely above the law and live like feudal lords.
        nmridul 4y ago
        but they are elected and can be replaced. You can see people using their rights to replace government (both national and state). Also reduce or increase their mandate over the years.
        sfe22 4y ago
        A king is replaceable too, whats your point. I did not make this claim.
- bharathyes 4y ago
  No country is a true democracy nor just that. Every country claiming democracy it an amalgamation of various ideas mixed in varying percentage. India is a parliamentary democratic secular republic with socialism also thrown in. Most of these ideas are overlapping but also has slighly differing paths. It is difficult to even agree on one precise definition on what each of these are without a debate ensuing.

ktta 4y ago

India's labor laws are pretty strong, and that's the only reason why it was put off till now. Infact, take a look at this: https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/wistron-violence-what-exactly-happened-at-karnataka-apple-plant/story-QJgFDbyPKCSUECw6sb7QIP.html https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/wistron-violence-w... That wouldn't have happened in China, and it was actually a detractor for additional manufacturing to be done in India. I believe this push is not for additional cost cutting but to avoid the tariffs placed on imported goods.

marianatom 4y ago

Nothing of the sort; it's due to the worsening condition to run a business in China, namely the abrupt shutdown of electricity to factories, abrupt covid shutdown of factories and loss of output while still needing to pay out wages, and worsening economic conditions. you can see some of that in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPptD2eBgwo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPptD2eBgwo. In this video, a factory owner complains of an abrupt and unannounced electricity halt leading to machinery stopping in mid operation, and another factory owner crying that she has paid out 1M in wages after having to take a 3M loan out, and having so much unsold inventory.

John23832 4y ago
Eh. You can’t really say that because those (electricity and Covid shut downs) are short term disruptions. Apple is not moving suppliers on short term disruptions.

et-al 4y ago

I don't think that's being overly skeptical. It's been known that as labor prices increase, companies move factories to cheaper locations. Seam-sealed technical jackets used to be made in China, but now they're made in Vietnam. If prices in Vietnam rise to a certain point, companies will look at less developed countries. But to ktta's point, another reason Apple did this was to minimize the Indian tariffs.

spaceman_2020 4y ago

India’s labor laws are actually a massive deterrent to most large scale manufacturing. One of the perils of a democratic setup is that people are free to assemble themselves into labor unions. India has a strong culture of labor organization which often stops reforms and investment. I’m personally on the fence about this. Its easy to demonize labor unions when you’re outside that particular labor force, but my family has witnessed the importance of labor organization first hand, and I understand how crucial they can be to prop up labor interests.

thwoeiruoi234 4y ago

[flagged]