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> How exactly could this whole ordeal been avoided? Not have a western backed military coup in 2014, for starters? As I said, Ukraine was essentially a vassal

> How exactly could this whole ordeal been avoided? Not have a western backed military coup in 2014, for starters? As I said, Ukraine was essentially a vassal state of Russia. The coup in 2014 meant to overthrow vassal status. This kicked off a civil war. There's a series of events that lead to the current war which could have been handled differently. But Nationalism won out, people decided that giving autonomy to some regions was unacceptable and worth fighting for.

throwaway894345 4y ago
The Maidan Uprising was neither western-backed nor a military coup. It wasn't even a coup. The _legislature_ may have violated the constitutional process for removing a president, but the courts never ruled as such. It's also not a "civil war" when Russia invades Ukraine, even if there are separatists involved.
- linuxftw 4y ago
  > The Maidan Uprising was neither western-backed nor a military coup. Many people think this, but it's factually incorrect.
  - throwaway894345 4y ago
    Many people think this because it is factually correct. The evidence to the contrary is a clip of a private conversation that Russian intelligence acquired in which one US diplomat opined to another that the uprising might not be a bad thing (or something to that effect).
    - linuxftw 4y ago
      When John McCain flies out and meets the head of the opposition, who thereafter storm the capital with assault rifles, and the president of the country flees, it sure looks like a western backed coup to me.
      - throwaway894345 4y ago
        A politician visiting a country (even expressing support for a rival politician) doesn't imply backing a coup, and indeed there was no coup--the capital was never occupied (in a military sense) by armed protesters as you claim, the president fled to escape justice (and indeed the supreme court convicted him of treason). Notably, the Yanukovych wasn't pushed out by any military or paramilitary, he was voted out by the (democratically elected) legislature and convicted by the court. That said, I'm sure the protesters were armed, as they were being fired upon by Yanukovych's forces (including snipers trained in Russia) and many protesters were killed. Moreover, McCain was advocating for a peaceful transition of power to stop the violence. While we're talking about suspicious foreign involvement, let's talk about the $15bn that Putin offered Yanukovych (and which Yanukovych accepted) hours before police were ordered to crack down on protests. Or the documents which showed that Russian officials served as advisers in the crackdown on protesters (operations Wave and Boomerang) including the use of snipers and the planned use of 22,000 security troops in Kyiv alone.
        linuxftw 4y ago
        > the capital was never occupied (in a military sense) by armed protesters as you claim I'm sorry, but this is a basic fact of the events, and you are tragically misinformed. Many people are misinformed, many media outlets played up the 'peaceful protests' angle, but there is no doubt, there was an armed insurrection. I think this article offers a glimpse of what was being reported at the time [1]. Scores of police captured, 3 killed, 28 shot. This was prior to the presidential palace being captured, that happened once the police flipped sides. 1: https://www.politico.com/story/2014/02/kiev-ukraine-protesters-capture-67-police-103720 https://www.politico.com/story/2014/02/kiev-ukraine-proteste...

throwaway894345 4y ago

The Maidan Uprising was neither western-backed nor a military coup. It wasn't even a coup. The _legislature_ may have violated the constitutional process for removing a president, but the courts never ruled as such. It's also not a "civil war" when Russia invades Ukraine, even if there are separatists involved.

linuxftw 4y ago
> The Maidan Uprising was neither western-backed nor a military coup. Many people think this, but it's factually incorrect.
- throwaway894345 4y ago
  Many people think this because it is factually correct. The evidence to the contrary is a clip of a private conversation that Russian intelligence acquired in which one US diplomat opined to another that the uprising might not be a bad thing (or something to that effect).
  - linuxftw 4y ago
    When John McCain flies out and meets the head of the opposition, who thereafter storm the capital with assault rifles, and the president of the country flees, it sure looks like a western backed coup to me.
    - throwaway894345 4y ago
      A politician visiting a country (even expressing support for a rival politician) doesn't imply backing a coup, and indeed there was no coup--the capital was never occupied (in a military sense) by armed protesters as you claim, the president fled to escape justice (and indeed the supreme court convicted him of treason). Notably, the Yanukovych wasn't pushed out by any military or paramilitary, he was voted out by the (democratically elected) legislature and convicted by the court. That said, I'm sure the protesters were armed, as they were being fired upon by Yanukovych's forces (including snipers trained in Russia) and many protesters were killed. Moreover, McCain was advocating for a peaceful transition of power to stop the violence. While we're talking about suspicious foreign involvement, let's talk about the $15bn that Putin offered Yanukovych (and which Yanukovych accepted) hours before police were ordered to crack down on protests. Or the documents which showed that Russian officials served as advisers in the crackdown on protesters (operations Wave and Boomerang) including the use of snipers and the planned use of 22,000 security troops in Kyiv alone.
      - linuxftw 4y ago
        > the capital was never occupied (in a military sense) by armed protesters as you claim I'm sorry, but this is a basic fact of the events, and you are tragically misinformed. Many people are misinformed, many media outlets played up the 'peaceful protests' angle, but there is no doubt, there was an armed insurrection. I think this article offers a glimpse of what was being reported at the time [1]. Scores of police captured, 3 killed, 28 shot. This was prior to the presidential palace being captured, that happened once the police flipped sides. 1: https://www.politico.com/story/2014/02/kiev-ukraine-protesters-capture-67-police-103720 https://www.politico.com/story/2014/02/kiev-ukraine-proteste...