9 ms·

I expect NASA to do the calculations, but I would expect boosting the orbit of an existing working telescope would be much cheaper than building a new one AND A

I expect NASA to do the calculations, but I would expect boosting the orbit of an existing working telescope would be much cheaper than building a new one AND ALSO putting it in orbit. There are relatively few telescopes outside Earth's atmosphere; keeping Hubble running seems like a good idea.

mlyle 4y ago
It's not just orbital boosting. It's also doing things like swapping out reaction wheels and dying hardware of various kinds. And as soon as you're doing that, you're probably using humans. And then because the cost is already so big, you might as well replace some instruments, too...
- deelowe 4y ago
  Do they plan to do more manned missions to Hubble?
  - mlyle 4y ago
    Hubble re-enters in 2037, and is useless because of orbital mechanics a few years before that. I think it's unlikely the current reaction wheel system lasts to that ~2032 timeframe, let alone significantly beyond. Of 6 wheels, 2 are working well, 1 is dodgy, and 3 have failed. 3 are required to keep orientation.
    - mkw5053 4y ago
      I thought they could now control it with only 2 reaction wheels [1] [1] https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/10543974.pdf https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/10543974.pdf
  - gs17 4y ago
    This proposal (by being part of Polaris) is implied to be manned as far as I can tell.
    - thaeli 4y ago
      It's also proposed to be funded by Isaacman. Reading between the lines, he's probably planning to go to space personally and fix the Hubble. Which is kinda a vanity project at that point, but hey, I'll take it.
      - SyzygistSix 4y ago
        Both he and SpaceX seem committed to expanding the capabilities of private spaceflight and private astronauts. If they are into it, why not?
- melling 4y ago
  Yes, humans are needed until they’re not. Once they’re no longer needed the cost of repair drops by 100x. Musk’s android seems like a bit of a gimmick but hopefully he stirs up enough imagination in people that we get a few breakthroughs in robotics. Then we can explore the entire solar system…build bases on Mars and the moons of Jupiter, etc without sending humans
  - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
    we can't even get a robot to fix a dishwasher or to sort trash. Let alone am orbital telescope
    - queuebert 4y ago
      I can't even get my dishwasher to clean my dishes. This is not the future I was promised.
      - WalterBright 4y ago
        The trick is let your dog lick them clean.
        ClumsyPilot 4y ago
        biological automation is always superior
        TMWNN 4y ago
        >Where can you find another non-linear servo-mechanism weighing only 150 pounds and having great adaptability, that can be produced so cheaply by completely unskilled labor? —Scott Crossfield, US test pilot <https://quoteinvestigator.com/tag/albert-scott-crossfield/ https://quoteinvestigator.com/tag/albert-scott-crossfield/>
    - melling 4y ago
      Yeah, many people think it’s impossible until someone else does it. The game of Go wasn’t close to being won by a computer until DeepMind came along. https://www.theverge.com/2016/3/9/11185030/google-deepmind-alphago-go-artificial-intelligence-impact https://www.theverge.com/2016/3/9/11185030/google-deepmind-a...
- kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
  A boost module can semipermanently attach itself and take over all the maneuvering functions with its own hardware suite.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    Ha, found the practical engineer! I didn't think of that. Brilliant!
    - xani_ 4y ago
      Or Kerbal Space Program player lmao. I definitely did that once or twice, just send a small craft with some RCS thrusters and reaction wheels then attach it to spacecraft via The Claw
    - pkaye 4y ago
      On the last Hubble service mission, they added a soft capture mechanism. They could attach a boost module to that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubble_Space_Telescope#/media/File:Soft_Capture_Mechanism_installed_on_Hubble_(illustration).jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubble_Space_Telescope#/media/...
Retric 4y ago
The original Hubble servicing mission where apparently more expensive than building and launching 3 replacements. Those missions where less about cost than actually testing repair capabilities and some publicity. Which may or may not still be relevant.
- cfraenkel 4y ago
  ALL shuttle missions were more expensive than launching 3 separate expendable missions. (on top of the launch costs themselves, the payload had to be 'upgraded' to human safety requirements. So things like deployment squibs had to be made triple redundant (instead of double) and had to be completely disconnected from a power source until released from the shuttle bay. (and of course, that power connection system had to be triple redundant... the complexity fed on itself) and that's before you get to the paperwork and the safety reviews... And you had to staff up three launch teams, instead of two... you needed a full team at Johnson in addition to the Cape and your own site. And the launch teams needed to be onsite for the full shuttle mission and rehearsals, and jerked around by the incessant shuttle schedule slips. The costs just kept piling up. )
sidewndr46 4y ago
As other's have commented, NASA has "free" telescopes donated to them by the NRO.

mlyle 4y ago

It's not just orbital boosting. It's also doing things like swapping out reaction wheels and dying hardware of various kinds. And as soon as you're doing that, you're probably using humans. And then because the cost is already so big, you might as well replace some instruments, too...

deelowe 4y ago
Do they plan to do more manned missions to Hubble?
- mlyle 4y ago
  Hubble re-enters in 2037, and is useless because of orbital mechanics a few years before that. I think it's unlikely the current reaction wheel system lasts to that ~2032 timeframe, let alone significantly beyond. Of 6 wheels, 2 are working well, 1 is dodgy, and 3 have failed. 3 are required to keep orientation.
  - mkw5053 4y ago
    I thought they could now control it with only 2 reaction wheels [1] [1] https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/10543974.pdf https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/10543974.pdf
- gs17 4y ago
  This proposal (by being part of Polaris) is implied to be manned as far as I can tell.
  - thaeli 4y ago
    It's also proposed to be funded by Isaacman. Reading between the lines, he's probably planning to go to space personally and fix the Hubble. Which is kinda a vanity project at that point, but hey, I'll take it.
    - SyzygistSix 4y ago
      Both he and SpaceX seem committed to expanding the capabilities of private spaceflight and private astronauts. If they are into it, why not?
melling 4y ago
Yes, humans are needed until they’re not. Once they’re no longer needed the cost of repair drops by 100x. Musk’s android seems like a bit of a gimmick but hopefully he stirs up enough imagination in people that we get a few breakthroughs in robotics. Then we can explore the entire solar system…build bases on Mars and the moons of Jupiter, etc without sending humans
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  we can't even get a robot to fix a dishwasher or to sort trash. Let alone am orbital telescope
  - queuebert 4y ago
    I can't even get my dishwasher to clean my dishes. This is not the future I was promised.
    - WalterBright 4y ago
      The trick is let your dog lick them clean.
      - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
        biological automation is always superior
        TMWNN 4y ago
        >Where can you find another non-linear servo-mechanism weighing only 150 pounds and having great adaptability, that can be produced so cheaply by completely unskilled labor? —Scott Crossfield, US test pilot <https://quoteinvestigator.com/tag/albert-scott-crossfield/ https://quoteinvestigator.com/tag/albert-scott-crossfield/>
  - melling 4y ago
    Yeah, many people think it’s impossible until someone else does it. The game of Go wasn’t close to being won by a computer until DeepMind came along. https://www.theverge.com/2016/3/9/11185030/google-deepmind-alphago-go-artificial-intelligence-impact https://www.theverge.com/2016/3/9/11185030/google-deepmind-a...
kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
A boost module can semipermanently attach itself and take over all the maneuvering functions with its own hardware suite.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  Ha, found the practical engineer! I didn't think of that. Brilliant!
  - xani_ 4y ago
    Or Kerbal Space Program player lmao. I definitely did that once or twice, just send a small craft with some RCS thrusters and reaction wheels then attach it to spacecraft via The Claw
  - pkaye 4y ago
    On the last Hubble service mission, they added a soft capture mechanism. They could attach a boost module to that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubble_Space_Telescope#/media/File:Soft_Capture_Mechanism_installed_on_Hubble_(illustration).jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubble_Space_Telescope#/media/...

Retric 4y ago

The original Hubble servicing mission where apparently more expensive than building and launching 3 replacements. Those missions where less about cost than actually testing repair capabilities and some publicity. Which may or may not still be relevant.

cfraenkel 4y ago
ALL shuttle missions were more expensive than launching 3 separate expendable missions. (on top of the launch costs themselves, the payload had to be 'upgraded' to human safety requirements. So things like deployment squibs had to be made triple redundant (instead of double) and had to be completely disconnected from a power source until released from the shuttle bay. (and of course, that power connection system had to be triple redundant... the complexity fed on itself) and that's before you get to the paperwork and the safety reviews... And you had to staff up three launch teams, instead of two... you needed a full team at Johnson in addition to the Cape and your own site. And the launch teams needed to be onsite for the full shuttle mission and rehearsals, and jerked around by the incessant shuttle schedule slips. The costs just kept piling up. )

sidewndr46 4y ago

As other's have commented, NASA has "free" telescopes donated to them by the NRO.