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> Putin, for whatever reason, chose potential glory over economic prosperity. He stated his reasons. He believes there was a western-backed military coup in 2

> Putin, for whatever reason, chose potential glory over economic prosperity. He stated his reasons. He believes there was a western-backed military coup in 2014. Ukraine failed to implement the Minsk agreements. Ukraine is attempting to join NATO. He believed an assault on the breakaway republics was imminent. He believes Ukraine is harboring literal Nazis, committing crimes against humanity against ethnic Russians. Those are more or less the stated reasons. IMO, Ukraine was a vassal state, much like Puerto Rico to the US. Maybe the relationship wasn't so formalized, but Russia viewed Ukraine as theirs one way or another. For some reason, people in the western world operate on some kind of technicality system, as if words on paper make a difference.

throwaway894345 4y ago
> For some reason, people in the western world operate on some kind of technicality system, as if words on paper make a difference. Yes, we call this "rule of law" and it works really well in the west.
- linuxftw 4y ago
  Does it though? [1] We have pretend rule of law. We pretend the law matters, and we pretend to follow it. In any case, Putin argues that the war (or in his parlance, SMO) is legal under UN precedent in Yugoslavia, that a breakaway republic may be recognized even if the former nation dissents. IMO, this whole ordeal could have been avoided, but Western backed Ukraine decided it was better to fight than capitulate to Russia's demands. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_the_Iraq_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_the_Iraq_War
  - piva00 4y ago
    You are probably well aware but this is exactly the lines being sold by the Kremlin. Ukraine, as we can see in reality, isn't Russia. Don't identify as Russia and has not been wanting to be part of Moscow-ruled territory for a few decades. How exactly could this whole ordeal been avoided? Letting Putin continue the dismantling of Ukraine through civil wars and separatist movements?
    - linuxftw 4y ago
      > How exactly could this whole ordeal been avoided? Not have a western backed military coup in 2014, for starters? As I said, Ukraine was essentially a vassal state of Russia. The coup in 2014 meant to overthrow vassal status. This kicked off a civil war. There's a series of events that lead to the current war which could have been handled differently. But Nationalism won out, people decided that giving autonomy to some regions was unacceptable and worth fighting for.
      - throwaway894345 4y ago
        The Maidan Uprising was neither western-backed nor a military coup. It wasn't even a coup. The _legislature_ may have violated the constitutional process for removing a president, but the courts never ruled as such. It's also not a "civil war" when Russia invades Ukraine, even if there are separatists involved.
        linuxftw 4y ago
        > The Maidan Uprising was neither western-backed nor a military coup. Many people think this, but it's factually incorrect.
        throwaway894345 4y ago
        Many people think this because it is factually correct. The evidence to the contrary is a clip of a private conversation that Russian intelligence acquired in which one US diplomat opined to another that the uprising might not be a bad thing (or something to that effect).
        linuxftw 4y ago
        When John McCain flies out and meets the head of the opposition, who thereafter storm the capital with assault rifles, and the president of the country flees, it sure looks like a western backed coup to me.
  - throwaway894345 4y ago
    > We have pretend rule of law. We pretend the law matters, and we pretend to follow it. There's no pretense. We mostly do follow the law, and the law very much matters. The Iraq War is the exception that proves the rule. > IMO, this whole ordeal could have been avoided, but Western backed Ukraine decided it was better to fight than capitulate to Russia's demands. "WWII could have been avoided, but Allied Europe decided it was better to fight than capitulate to Nazi demands." Obviously nations are going to fight for their sovereignty. > In any case, Putin argues that the war (or in his parlance, SMO) is legal under UN precedent in Yugoslavia, that a breakaway republic may be recognized even if the former nation dissents. Anyone can argue that anything is legal, that doesn't make them right. Notably, the UN collectively disagrees with him.

throwaway894345 4y ago

> For some reason, people in the western world operate on some kind of technicality system, as if words on paper make a difference. Yes, we call this "rule of law" and it works really well in the west.

linuxftw 4y ago
Does it though? [1] We have pretend rule of law. We pretend the law matters, and we pretend to follow it. In any case, Putin argues that the war (or in his parlance, SMO) is legal under UN precedent in Yugoslavia, that a breakaway republic may be recognized even if the former nation dissents. IMO, this whole ordeal could have been avoided, but Western backed Ukraine decided it was better to fight than capitulate to Russia's demands. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_the_Iraq_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_the_Iraq_War
- piva00 4y ago
  You are probably well aware but this is exactly the lines being sold by the Kremlin. Ukraine, as we can see in reality, isn't Russia. Don't identify as Russia and has not been wanting to be part of Moscow-ruled territory for a few decades. How exactly could this whole ordeal been avoided? Letting Putin continue the dismantling of Ukraine through civil wars and separatist movements?
  - linuxftw 4y ago
    > How exactly could this whole ordeal been avoided? Not have a western backed military coup in 2014, for starters? As I said, Ukraine was essentially a vassal state of Russia. The coup in 2014 meant to overthrow vassal status. This kicked off a civil war. There's a series of events that lead to the current war which could have been handled differently. But Nationalism won out, people decided that giving autonomy to some regions was unacceptable and worth fighting for.
    - throwaway894345 4y ago
      The Maidan Uprising was neither western-backed nor a military coup. It wasn't even a coup. The _legislature_ may have violated the constitutional process for removing a president, but the courts never ruled as such. It's also not a "civil war" when Russia invades Ukraine, even if there are separatists involved.
      - linuxftw 4y ago
        > The Maidan Uprising was neither western-backed nor a military coup. Many people think this, but it's factually incorrect.
        throwaway894345 4y ago
        Many people think this because it is factually correct. The evidence to the contrary is a clip of a private conversation that Russian intelligence acquired in which one US diplomat opined to another that the uprising might not be a bad thing (or something to that effect).
        linuxftw 4y ago
        When John McCain flies out and meets the head of the opposition, who thereafter storm the capital with assault rifles, and the president of the country flees, it sure looks like a western backed coup to me.
- throwaway894345 4y ago
  > We have pretend rule of law. We pretend the law matters, and we pretend to follow it. There's no pretense. We mostly do follow the law, and the law very much matters. The Iraq War is the exception that proves the rule. > IMO, this whole ordeal could have been avoided, but Western backed Ukraine decided it was better to fight than capitulate to Russia's demands. "WWII could have been avoided, but Allied Europe decided it was better to fight than capitulate to Nazi demands." Obviously nations are going to fight for their sovereignty. > In any case, Putin argues that the war (or in his parlance, SMO) is legal under UN precedent in Yugoslavia, that a breakaway republic may be recognized even if the former nation dissents. Anyone can argue that anything is legal, that doesn't make them right. Notably, the UN collectively disagrees with him.