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Why do you need visibility and/or predictability? I would say Steve Yegge's classic Good Agile, Bad Agile gives the answer - Kanban (or, more informally, a wor

by js8 4y ago

Why do you need visibility and/or predictability? I would say Steve Yegge's classic Good Agile, Bad Agile gives the answer - Kanban (or, more informally, a work queue).

robertlagrant 4y ago
> Why do you need visibility and/or predictability? Because someone's paying you to do stuff, and they might like to know what's happening. The incredible rush of money into tech in the 2010s might have given the impression that that isn't a thing, but it is, and teams that can't self-manage (including giving visibility and predictability) are going to become encumbered with more and more people managers to compensate. What they should be doing is understanding their role, making sure it's fulfilled, and then taking that cash that would be spent on managers and spending it on engineers instead. But that won't happen if they can't communicate, or can't even see a need for communication.
- js8 4y ago
  OK, I take it your answer for visibility is management reporting, I am not sure about predictability, you didn't really answer it. SW development is as predictable as much you're willing to invest into research/planning, and that very much overlaps (as observed in Kanban) with doing the actual work. When I started SW development in 2005, we had one meeting a week (Friday) with our boss, where we summarized what progress we made during the week. It was exactly what he and his superiors needed to know, not anything more.
  - robertlagrant 4y ago
    > OK, I take it your answer for visibility is management reporting, I am not sure about predictability Not reporting. Reporting is an internal function. People would like to know what's happening and what's going to happen, so that they know roughly what to expect for planning purposes elsewhere in the business, e.g. marketing. Not just reporting for its own sake.
    - js8 4y ago
      If you want to know how long it will take to develop a feature, just create a task for this research/design/planning and schedule it as usual in Kanban. Still, no sprint required.
      - robertlagrant 4y ago
        I'm not saying a sprint is required. You were asking why visibility and predictability would be a good idea. Sounds as though I've convinced you!
        js8 4y ago
        > Sounds as though I've convinced you! Not really.. The PP asked how to do visibility and predictability without sprints. I asked, what do you need it for? You said, they are imposed externally. I said, well, if they are imposed externally, figure out the minimal requirements and do that. No need to do any extra bureacracy, they are not required for SW development process.
        robertlagrant 4y ago
        I didn't mention extra bureaucracy. I just explained why visibility and predicability are a good idea, which you seem to agree with.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
arnvald 4y ago
You need visibility, because if something is done, but nobody knows about it, it's almost as if it wasn't done at all. You need predictability, so that people who depend on your work can make future plans (and I'm not talking about promising the day of delivery, but simple "this week / this quarter / this year / probably never") And yeah, Kanban is a good alternative, but the article does'nt mention it at all

by js8 4y ago

Why do you need visibility and/or predictability? I would say Steve Yegge's classic Good Agile, Bad Agile gives the answer - Kanban (or, more informally, a work queue).

robertlagrant 4y ago

> Why do you need visibility and/or predictability? Because someone's paying you to do stuff, and they might like to know what's happening. The incredible rush of money into tech in the 2010s might have given the impression that that isn't a thing, but it is, and teams that can't self-manage (including giving visibility and predictability) are going to become encumbered with more and more people managers to compensate. What they should be doing is understanding their role, making sure it's fulfilled, and then taking that cash that would be spent on managers and spending it on engineers instead. But that won't happen if they can't communicate, or can't even see a need for communication.

js8 4y ago
OK, I take it your answer for visibility is management reporting, I am not sure about predictability, you didn't really answer it. SW development is as predictable as much you're willing to invest into research/planning, and that very much overlaps (as observed in Kanban) with doing the actual work. When I started SW development in 2005, we had one meeting a week (Friday) with our boss, where we summarized what progress we made during the week. It was exactly what he and his superiors needed to know, not anything more.
- robertlagrant 4y ago
  > OK, I take it your answer for visibility is management reporting, I am not sure about predictability Not reporting. Reporting is an internal function. People would like to know what's happening and what's going to happen, so that they know roughly what to expect for planning purposes elsewhere in the business, e.g. marketing. Not just reporting for its own sake.
  - js8 4y ago
    If you want to know how long it will take to develop a feature, just create a task for this research/design/planning and schedule it as usual in Kanban. Still, no sprint required.
    - robertlagrant 4y ago
      I'm not saying a sprint is required. You were asking why visibility and predictability would be a good idea. Sounds as though I've convinced you!
      - js8 4y ago
        > Sounds as though I've convinced you! Not really.. The PP asked how to do visibility and predictability without sprints. I asked, what do you need it for? You said, they are imposed externally. I said, well, if they are imposed externally, figure out the minimal requirements and do that. No need to do any extra bureacracy, they are not required for SW development process.
        robertlagrant 4y ago
        I didn't mention extra bureaucracy. I just explained why visibility and predicability are a good idea, which you seem to agree with.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

arnvald 4y ago

You need visibility, because if something is done, but nobody knows about it, it's almost as if it wasn't done at all. You need predictability, so that people who depend on your work can make future plans (and I'm not talking about promising the day of delivery, but simple "this week / this quarter / this year / probably never") And yeah, Kanban is a good alternative, but the article does'nt mention it at all