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What has divisiveness to do with any of it? Is it divisive against other plants to claim that apples only come from apple trees? Universal human dignity can be

What has divisiveness to do with any of it? Is it divisive against other plants to claim that apples only come from apple trees? Universal human dignity can be accepted, applied, and understood by everyone. But so can belief in God. In fact, the Christian religion has already spread through virtually every culture already. By the way, one of the books I listed was by an atheist historian, Tom Holland, who was as surprised at his findings as you might expect, so that severely undercuts your insinuation that these ideas are a fictional manifestation of bias. I believe God is real, and that we as humans are individually known and cared for by Him. This is the foundation for universal human rights, and even some atheists worry about what will happen to these values if faith in God wanes.

kgarten 4y ago
I am raised catholic and go to church regularly. Universal human rights do not come from Christianity alone. If you take the tree example, let's make a mix of citrus, lemon, and orange. If you say it's just orange that's hiding the truth and makes citrus and lemon people understandable angry :) if you then say it's lemon-orange tradition, the citrus people get angry and the lemon people might feel alienated. Just saying. I recommend Nathan the Wise from Lessing for a read. Holland was raised in the Christian church by his devout Anglican mother ... wikipedia Citation from Holland : "I am not Greek or Roman at all, but thoroughly and proudly Christian" So he does not believe in God, yet he defines himself as Christian :) I said Christian author, no contradiction there. I also recommend Superior from Angela Saini as a read. You don't need God to believe in Universal Human Rights and Ethics. Seeing the recent abuse scandals, in the catholic church I find organized religion is a bigger problem ... We disagree fundamentally. Still I appreciate that you take the time to reply. Something, I really like about hackernews :)
- PathOfEclipse 4y ago
  Re: You don't need God to believe in Universal Human Rights and Ethics. That's certainly true, at least for now, and Holland himself states: "Much of intellectual culture in the west over the past 150 years has been an attempt by various people who no longer believe in the Christian God to find a justification for the beliefs that derive from Christianity." He refers in particular to secular humanism as an attempt to do just that. I just don't think that will end well. I also think you did a good job alluding to why this discussion matters when you said," in the catholic church I find organized religion is a bigger problem." I believe that participation in organized Christian religion is important to the continuity of our civilization, and that Christian organizations have done far more good than harm on the net balance. Also, evil things happen in every institution: https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/forgotten-study-abuse-in-school-100-times-worse-than-by-priests/ https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/forgotten-study-abuse-in-s.... Institutions can and do tilt towards corruption, and therefore need continual cleansing and renewal. There has been an assault on Christianity, both against the general religion and the relevant physical organizations, for a long time, by the intellectual class. A lot of the negativity people feel towards these organizations today is manufactured by university professors, the news media, entertainment industry, and so on. I think believers should fight back. Not only do we have the truth on our side, but a rich history of good things accomplished through our religion and religious organizations.
  - kgarten 4y ago
    Who is this intellectual class, that makes this organized assault? Can you name figureheads and their organizations? " Not only do we have the truth on our side, ..." That sounds very extremist to me. I have my beliefs yet would never claim that the objective truth is on my side. In my opinion, it's also counter a scientific mindset and worldview. What you are writing sounds a lot like Cultural Marxism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Marxism_conspiracy_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Marxism_conspiracy_th... I don't know what is true or not, yet at least from the evidence presented in the wikipedia article, I see very little basis for your claims.
  - marcus_holmes 4y ago
    Fascinating discussion. I'd just like to chip in that in Europe, this is a very outlandish position to take. Christianity is not a central part of our civilisation in Europe, or in fact any organised religion at all. Even in the UK, which has a state religion, the idea of making a political decision based on a religious belief would be rejected by the electorate. So the contention that "we need christianity for our civilisation to survive" is overblown at least.

kgarten 4y ago

I am raised catholic and go to church regularly. Universal human rights do not come from Christianity alone. If you take the tree example, let's make a mix of citrus, lemon, and orange. If you say it's just orange that's hiding the truth and makes citrus and lemon people understandable angry :) if you then say it's lemon-orange tradition, the citrus people get angry and the lemon people might feel alienated. Just saying. I recommend Nathan the Wise from Lessing for a read. Holland was raised in the Christian church by his devout Anglican mother ... wikipedia Citation from Holland : "I am not Greek or Roman at all, but thoroughly and proudly Christian" So he does not believe in God, yet he defines himself as Christian :) I said Christian author, no contradiction there. I also recommend Superior from Angela Saini as a read. You don't need God to believe in Universal Human Rights and Ethics. Seeing the recent abuse scandals, in the catholic church I find organized religion is a bigger problem ... We disagree fundamentally. Still I appreciate that you take the time to reply. Something, I really like about hackernews :)

PathOfEclipse 4y ago
Re: You don't need God to believe in Universal Human Rights and Ethics. That's certainly true, at least for now, and Holland himself states: "Much of intellectual culture in the west over the past 150 years has been an attempt by various people who no longer believe in the Christian God to find a justification for the beliefs that derive from Christianity." He refers in particular to secular humanism as an attempt to do just that. I just don't think that will end well. I also think you did a good job alluding to why this discussion matters when you said," in the catholic church I find organized religion is a bigger problem." I believe that participation in organized Christian religion is important to the continuity of our civilization, and that Christian organizations have done far more good than harm on the net balance. Also, evil things happen in every institution: https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/forgotten-study-abuse-in-school-100-times-worse-than-by-priests/ https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/forgotten-study-abuse-in-s.... Institutions can and do tilt towards corruption, and therefore need continual cleansing and renewal. There has been an assault on Christianity, both against the general religion and the relevant physical organizations, for a long time, by the intellectual class. A lot of the negativity people feel towards these organizations today is manufactured by university professors, the news media, entertainment industry, and so on. I think believers should fight back. Not only do we have the truth on our side, but a rich history of good things accomplished through our religion and religious organizations.
- kgarten 4y ago
  Who is this intellectual class, that makes this organized assault? Can you name figureheads and their organizations? " Not only do we have the truth on our side, ..." That sounds very extremist to me. I have my beliefs yet would never claim that the objective truth is on my side. In my opinion, it's also counter a scientific mindset and worldview. What you are writing sounds a lot like Cultural Marxism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Marxism_conspiracy_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Marxism_conspiracy_th... I don't know what is true or not, yet at least from the evidence presented in the wikipedia article, I see very little basis for your claims.
- marcus_holmes 4y ago
  Fascinating discussion. I'd just like to chip in that in Europe, this is a very outlandish position to take. Christianity is not a central part of our civilisation in Europe, or in fact any organised religion at all. Even in the UK, which has a state religion, the idea of making a political decision based on a religious belief would be rejected by the electorate. So the contention that "we need christianity for our civilisation to survive" is overblown at least.