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No, in Iran the government has the same monopoly and uses it to pursue its own ends alright. It’s the process that leads to its use, and the purposes that diff

by eecc 4y ago

No, in Iran the government has the same monopoly and uses it to pursue its own ends alright. It’s the process that leads to its use, and the purposes that differ.

hef19898 4y ago
And how exactly is Iran a democratic society? I think I made a point about totalitarian regimes being different in the way the legitimize that monopoly and use it.
- drdeca 4y ago
  They didn't say it was? They were contradicting your claim that the state having a monopoly on violence is limited to democratic states.
  - hef19898 4y ago
    A claim I never made, at least I hope I never did.
    - drdeca 4y ago
      I misinterpreted your original comment. I suspect the other person may have misinterpreted it in the same way.
- muricula 4y ago
  Iran gets trotted out as a strawman in these arguments, but its government is really quite democratic compared to many US allies which have the mere trappings of democracy painted on a dictatorship. Iran has an elected president, and a parliament and multiple parties. As I understand it, the biggest issue with the government as a functioning democracy is that the unelected supreme council can prevent candidates from running and and dissolve parties. I don't mean to defend its actions against protestors right now, which I believe are heinous, and the government is lacking in respect for many human rights, but as a strawman for absolute dictatorship it's a very poor choice. Democracy is a spectrum, Iran is definitely on the spectrum, and if we Americans look in the mirror and think deeply about the structure of our government, we might find out that we're a lot closer to Iran on that spectrum than we were taught in school. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_the_Islamic_Republic_of_Iran https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_the_Islamic_Repu...
  - ngcc_hk 4y ago
    It is not a spectrum. USA and eu might be. But if someone above you can prevent your from running or electing then it is NOT democracy. Once you are free to do so then may I say no one promise heaven on earth. It is bad human and good in democracy. Sort it out. It is hard. But it is not the same as other sort it out for you.
    - vidarh 4y ago
      By your own definition, pretty much no countries, including the US, are democracies, as almost everywhere has mechanisms through which the courts can prevent you from running.
      - hef19898 4y ago
        Separation of power, judicative, legislative and executive, are the basic principal of democracies. The other being, fair, equal and secret elections.
      - quickthrower2 4y ago
        Bingo! Well you can’t have a perfect “pure” democracy but you want to try to get as close as possible. The court isn’t just a king who decides to veto.
  - inglor 4y ago
    The thing that makes Iran not a democracy is that all those bodies (parliament, president, parties) answer to the supreme leader and religious authority. It’s not a democracy if the elected bodies all answer to unelected ones.
    - alasdair_ 4y ago
      > It’s not a democracy if the elected bodies all answer to unelected ones. Like the supreme court?
      - 4y ago
- quetzthecoatl 4y ago
  The same way US is a democratic society? If two party system with hard barriers for a new party to enter needing additional approval from board consisting of the existing parties is a democracy, then so is Iran with all their limitations. Maybe a lesser one than US, but not that different.

by eecc 4y ago

No, in Iran the government has the same monopoly and uses it to pursue its own ends alright. It’s the process that leads to its use, and the purposes that differ.

hef19898 4y ago

And how exactly is Iran a democratic society? I think I made a point about totalitarian regimes being different in the way the legitimize that monopoly and use it.

drdeca 4y ago
They didn't say it was? They were contradicting your claim that the state having a monopoly on violence is limited to democratic states.
- hef19898 4y ago
  A claim I never made, at least I hope I never did.
  - drdeca 4y ago
    I misinterpreted your original comment. I suspect the other person may have misinterpreted it in the same way.
muricula 4y ago
Iran gets trotted out as a strawman in these arguments, but its government is really quite democratic compared to many US allies which have the mere trappings of democracy painted on a dictatorship. Iran has an elected president, and a parliament and multiple parties. As I understand it, the biggest issue with the government as a functioning democracy is that the unelected supreme council can prevent candidates from running and and dissolve parties. I don't mean to defend its actions against protestors right now, which I believe are heinous, and the government is lacking in respect for many human rights, but as a strawman for absolute dictatorship it's a very poor choice. Democracy is a spectrum, Iran is definitely on the spectrum, and if we Americans look in the mirror and think deeply about the structure of our government, we might find out that we're a lot closer to Iran on that spectrum than we were taught in school. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_the_Islamic_Republic_of_Iran https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_the_Islamic_Repu...
- ngcc_hk 4y ago
  It is not a spectrum. USA and eu might be. But if someone above you can prevent your from running or electing then it is NOT democracy. Once you are free to do so then may I say no one promise heaven on earth. It is bad human and good in democracy. Sort it out. It is hard. But it is not the same as other sort it out for you.
  - vidarh 4y ago
    By your own definition, pretty much no countries, including the US, are democracies, as almost everywhere has mechanisms through which the courts can prevent you from running.
    - hef19898 4y ago
      Separation of power, judicative, legislative and executive, are the basic principal of democracies. The other being, fair, equal and secret elections.
    - quickthrower2 4y ago
      Bingo! Well you can’t have a perfect “pure” democracy but you want to try to get as close as possible. The court isn’t just a king who decides to veto.
- inglor 4y ago
  The thing that makes Iran not a democracy is that all those bodies (parliament, president, parties) answer to the supreme leader and religious authority. It’s not a democracy if the elected bodies all answer to unelected ones.
  - alasdair_ 4y ago
    > It’s not a democracy if the elected bodies all answer to unelected ones. Like the supreme court?
    - 4y ago
quetzthecoatl 4y ago
The same way US is a democratic society? If two party system with hard barriers for a new party to enter needing additional approval from board consisting of the existing parties is a democracy, then so is Iran with all their limitations. Maybe a lesser one than US, but not that different.