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I really detest the idea that there is a correct way to speak. Speaking is communicating, it is the fundamental way you develop relationships with others. Publi

I really detest the idea that there is a correct way to speak. Speaking is communicating, it is the fundamental way you develop relationships with others. Public speaking is no different, just more people. Is there a correct way to be friends? No. And there is not a correct way to publicly speak either.

sdenton4 4y ago
There are, however, plenty of incorrect ways to be friends... Improving communication skills is about avoiding massive pitfalls while allowing your unique voice to develop through practice.
- philosopher1234 4y ago
  Is saying "um" one of these massive pitfalls you're referencing?
  - undecisive 4y ago
    Surely context matters massively? "Do you even still love me?" "Umm..." "Do you think Jack deserves this promotion?" "Umm..." "Do you think this software solves the problem?" "Umm..." "Surely you realise Donald Trump is the true incarnation of the coming messiah?" "Ummmm....." Those Ummms may well be massive pitfalls. Alternatively, those ummms might accurately indicate that the entire premise of the question is dubious or flat-out false, depending on your delivery. A person who uses ummm too much may well have severe problems communicating effectively, and a tool to help them only use ummms deliberately and meaningfully might be useful. A person in a presentation may wish to give an air of humility and approachability, in which case the ummms may be helpful - or they may wish to give an air of authority and certainty, in which case that meta-message is shattered by excessive umms. Intent-based communication is subjectively valid, and one can argue that expecting and requiring perfectly honed communication might be a form of implicit bias and prejudice. I appreciate the idea that, as a societal issue, reducing our dependence on homogenised thought delivery is worth a wider conversation, but I'd say this is the wrong level from which to attack that systemic change. You don't attack scalpel manufacturers for the proliferation of plastic surgery. Yet one could argue that a communication is - objectively - only as good as the way it is received. And while the majority of your communication might not need that level of certainty, for many people practice is the only thing they require to achieve the appearance of confidence. And democratising the ability to learn that skill doesn't seem to me a bad thing.
    - philosopher1234 4y ago
      Maybe those hesitations aren’t communication failures but successes, as they convey the true feeling of the speaker. You cannot evaluate “effectiveness” of speech if you don’t know what your goal is.
      - undecisive 4y ago
        Ohhh - sorry, it's only just occurred to me - you never umm when you're nervous, do you? You see, a lot of humans do. In public speaking, in meetings, in the pub or meeting people unexpectedly on the street. The brain hears a question and is on a go-slow, either too little coffee, too much coffee, too much stimulus or churning bigger questions, like why the hell did I wear this shirt and how am I gonna hide that massive grease stain and damn I wish I had a spare jumper in my "Oh, hi -- umm - uhyeah, no, it's umm... it's, well, it's umm going well thanks -- yes I am, thank you -- yeah, it's only been oh, umm, a month, umm... oh three months actually -- umm, yeah, she's umm, no I mean sure, she's not the, umm, I mean she's got, umm, a lovely" (And then the car-crash of a conversation ends with them pointing to your starbucks cup and saying "Anyway, I gotta go - enjoy your coffee!" and you shout back "Yeah, you too" then realise they haven't got any kind of drink in their hands but at that point you really don't want to care, you just want to be walking. Away.) Because in situations where the brain feels rushed, the brain tells itself "YOU NEED TO ANSWER NOW" and so, without any training otherwise, usually says umm or other filler rubbish in the (not-so-conscious) hopes that the other person won't realise that you're frantically scrabbling to find real content and coming up woefully short. And the real content that does come up, if it does come up, arrives in the most unhelpful way, and you end up saying horrible things and wish you'd just stuck with "umm". Even in a presentation, where you've practised a million times and your cat is frankly bored of hearing about your financial projections for the 15th time in a row, but you get in that room and you see the slide and you realise it doesn't tell you as much as it told you when you wrote it, your mind fills with.... "ohhhh... I know this.... this was the one, about.... ohhhhhh....." and your mouth says "Right. Umm... so we, uhhh, on this one, ummm, so as you may be aware, well some of you.... ummm..." Maybe some people's hesitations aren’t communication failures but successes. But some hesitations are not about truth. And often they compound themselves, making more little hesitation babies as you hate yourself a little more for the unintended hesitation that sounded meaningful that just passed out of you. And maybe the answer is stupidly simple: Cut yourself some slack. Allow pauses. Learn to ride the awkward silence. Learn to laugh at yourself under pressure and practice witty things to say to replace the filler. But that's not as easy as, well now you have the answer so what's the problem. That actually boils down to "retrain every neuron in the linguistic centres of your brain that have been growing since the age of 6" That takes some practice, and as annoyed as your cat may be that it's having to listen to yet another presentation, it can't replace the pressure of real life. Hence, I guess, a tool that helps you measure your progress in real life. Because sometimes "your goal" is just to get through one day without feeling like an absolute muppet.
julienreszka 4y ago
You may detest it as much as you wish, turns out however that it is not going to change the fact that there are better ways to speak/communicate.
- philosopher1234 4y ago
  No there aren't :)
duckmysick 4y ago
Speaking (and communicating) is a skill that can be improved.
- philosopher1234 4y ago
  No they aren't. If you have a specific goal, you can improve the way you acted towards that goal, though.
  - duckmysick 4y ago
    What would it take to convince you that speaking and communicating are skills?
    - philosopher1234 4y ago
      A coherent explanation of what the skill is
      - duckmysick 4y ago
        A skill is any learned ability, acquired from practice or training. Humans aren't born with a natural ability to speak. They learn it over time. All the way from producing sounds to forming sentences to using principles such as a rhetorical triangle.
        philosopher1234 4y ago
        Funny.
  - dvngnt_ 4y ago
    can you explain this with an example? IMO communication is a skill involving verbal and non-verbal communication. If a robot suggests that you maintain eye contact while communicating, it might help someone be aware of that and improve. There's usually always important guidelines to follow that you're free to break at your own risk. https://www.grammarly.com/tone https://www.grammarly.com/tone When I was in high school there was an amazing teacher that said um while giving written speeches. I started counting instead of listening to the actual speech. https://www.amazon.com/s?k=communication+skills https://www.amazon.com/s?k=communication+skills Would it have been better if they didn't create this tool because communication isn't a skill and because there isn't one objectively correct way to say good or bad
kfrzcode 4y ago
There are some ways that are more correct ways to speak. Especially if your intention is to convey meaning within a shared language.
- philosopher1234 4y ago
  Within a specific context you can coherently ask the question "could I have said that differently to achieve this outcome" but no, you are wrong if you think there are "more correct" ways to speak in general.
  - kfrzcode 4y ago
    To be "more correct" is to have fewer grammatical syntactical or lexical errors. What is it you know I talk of

sdenton4 4y ago

There are, however, plenty of incorrect ways to be friends... Improving communication skills is about avoiding massive pitfalls while allowing your unique voice to develop through practice.

philosopher1234 4y ago
Is saying "um" one of these massive pitfalls you're referencing?
- undecisive 4y ago
  Surely context matters massively? "Do you even still love me?" "Umm..." "Do you think Jack deserves this promotion?" "Umm..." "Do you think this software solves the problem?" "Umm..." "Surely you realise Donald Trump is the true incarnation of the coming messiah?" "Ummmm....." Those Ummms may well be massive pitfalls. Alternatively, those ummms might accurately indicate that the entire premise of the question is dubious or flat-out false, depending on your delivery. A person who uses ummm too much may well have severe problems communicating effectively, and a tool to help them only use ummms deliberately and meaningfully might be useful. A person in a presentation may wish to give an air of humility and approachability, in which case the ummms may be helpful - or they may wish to give an air of authority and certainty, in which case that meta-message is shattered by excessive umms. Intent-based communication is subjectively valid, and one can argue that expecting and requiring perfectly honed communication might be a form of implicit bias and prejudice. I appreciate the idea that, as a societal issue, reducing our dependence on homogenised thought delivery is worth a wider conversation, but I'd say this is the wrong level from which to attack that systemic change. You don't attack scalpel manufacturers for the proliferation of plastic surgery. Yet one could argue that a communication is - objectively - only as good as the way it is received. And while the majority of your communication might not need that level of certainty, for many people practice is the only thing they require to achieve the appearance of confidence. And democratising the ability to learn that skill doesn't seem to me a bad thing.
  - philosopher1234 4y ago
    Maybe those hesitations aren’t communication failures but successes, as they convey the true feeling of the speaker. You cannot evaluate “effectiveness” of speech if you don’t know what your goal is.
    - undecisive 4y ago
      Ohhh - sorry, it's only just occurred to me - you never umm when you're nervous, do you? You see, a lot of humans do. In public speaking, in meetings, in the pub or meeting people unexpectedly on the street. The brain hears a question and is on a go-slow, either too little coffee, too much coffee, too much stimulus or churning bigger questions, like why the hell did I wear this shirt and how am I gonna hide that massive grease stain and damn I wish I had a spare jumper in my "Oh, hi -- umm - uhyeah, no, it's umm... it's, well, it's umm going well thanks -- yes I am, thank you -- yeah, it's only been oh, umm, a month, umm... oh three months actually -- umm, yeah, she's umm, no I mean sure, she's not the, umm, I mean she's got, umm, a lovely" (And then the car-crash of a conversation ends with them pointing to your starbucks cup and saying "Anyway, I gotta go - enjoy your coffee!" and you shout back "Yeah, you too" then realise they haven't got any kind of drink in their hands but at that point you really don't want to care, you just want to be walking. Away.) Because in situations where the brain feels rushed, the brain tells itself "YOU NEED TO ANSWER NOW" and so, without any training otherwise, usually says umm or other filler rubbish in the (not-so-conscious) hopes that the other person won't realise that you're frantically scrabbling to find real content and coming up woefully short. And the real content that does come up, if it does come up, arrives in the most unhelpful way, and you end up saying horrible things and wish you'd just stuck with "umm". Even in a presentation, where you've practised a million times and your cat is frankly bored of hearing about your financial projections for the 15th time in a row, but you get in that room and you see the slide and you realise it doesn't tell you as much as it told you when you wrote it, your mind fills with.... "ohhhh... I know this.... this was the one, about.... ohhhhhh....." and your mouth says "Right. Umm... so we, uhhh, on this one, ummm, so as you may be aware, well some of you.... ummm..." Maybe some people's hesitations aren’t communication failures but successes. But some hesitations are not about truth. And often they compound themselves, making more little hesitation babies as you hate yourself a little more for the unintended hesitation that sounded meaningful that just passed out of you. And maybe the answer is stupidly simple: Cut yourself some slack. Allow pauses. Learn to ride the awkward silence. Learn to laugh at yourself under pressure and practice witty things to say to replace the filler. But that's not as easy as, well now you have the answer so what's the problem. That actually boils down to "retrain every neuron in the linguistic centres of your brain that have been growing since the age of 6" That takes some practice, and as annoyed as your cat may be that it's having to listen to yet another presentation, it can't replace the pressure of real life. Hence, I guess, a tool that helps you measure your progress in real life. Because sometimes "your goal" is just to get through one day without feeling like an absolute muppet.

julienreszka 4y ago

You may detest it as much as you wish, turns out however that it is not going to change the fact that there are better ways to speak/communicate.

philosopher1234 4y ago
No there aren't :)

duckmysick 4y ago

Speaking (and communicating) is a skill that can be improved.

philosopher1234 4y ago
No they aren't. If you have a specific goal, you can improve the way you acted towards that goal, though.
- duckmysick 4y ago
  What would it take to convince you that speaking and communicating are skills?
  - philosopher1234 4y ago
    A coherent explanation of what the skill is
    - duckmysick 4y ago
      A skill is any learned ability, acquired from practice or training. Humans aren't born with a natural ability to speak. They learn it over time. All the way from producing sounds to forming sentences to using principles such as a rhetorical triangle.
      - philosopher1234 4y ago
        Funny.
- dvngnt_ 4y ago
  can you explain this with an example? IMO communication is a skill involving verbal and non-verbal communication. If a robot suggests that you maintain eye contact while communicating, it might help someone be aware of that and improve. There's usually always important guidelines to follow that you're free to break at your own risk. https://www.grammarly.com/tone https://www.grammarly.com/tone When I was in high school there was an amazing teacher that said um while giving written speeches. I started counting instead of listening to the actual speech. https://www.amazon.com/s?k=communication+skills https://www.amazon.com/s?k=communication+skills Would it have been better if they didn't create this tool because communication isn't a skill and because there isn't one objectively correct way to say good or bad

kfrzcode 4y ago

There are some ways that are more correct ways to speak. Especially if your intention is to convey meaning within a shared language.

philosopher1234 4y ago
Within a specific context you can coherently ask the question "could I have said that differently to achieve this outcome" but no, you are wrong if you think there are "more correct" ways to speak in general.
- kfrzcode 4y ago
  To be "more correct" is to have fewer grammatical syntactical or lexical errors. What is it you know I talk of