11 ms·

Some Asians' college strategy: Don't check 'Asian'

150 points by thomasgerbe 15y ago

vaksel 15y ago
I don't see why colleges should even be allowed to ask that on applications.
- brandnewlow 15y ago
  No one has to answer.
  - winter_blue 15y ago
    But can they figure out by inspecting your parents (as it says in the article) ? Additionally if they have a pic that would it give it away.
    - veyron 15y ago
      Historically that's why many schools asked people to submit a picture
brandnewlow 15y ago
I would advise an asian college applicant to an elite school to strongly consider not checking the "asian" box. It is absolutely true that they're in competition against the other asian applicants. It's also absolutely true that the asian applicants have extremely common profiles in terms of activities, test scores, grades, and points of view. When I was an admissions office for a short time, my advice to asian applicants looking to be noticed was to go to clown school, perform as a semi-professional magician, or even excel at sports. Violin, cello, piano, essays about translating for your immigrant parents, computers, math, science...all that stuff blends together after awhile and makes it hard for an admissions office to remember you when sitting around the table voting on applicants.
- yangez 15y ago
  I'm curious. In your experience, was it just those activities (Violin, cello, piano, etc) that were beaten to death and no longer desirable, or was more about the uniformity of Asian applicants? For example, if a white kid had the same piano + math achievements as an Asian one did in the same year, would he stand out more?
  - brandnewlow 15y ago
    The white kid might stand out a bit more, but he'd probably get lost in the crush, too. There's got to be a twist, there's got to be an angle. So a kid with incredible credentials who plays the violin and is awesome at math....who grew up in an igloo is going to get extra attention. That same kid who went to a math/science academy in NYC has a tough path in front of him.
keiferski 15y ago
Seeing that it is optional to report your ethnicity, I'm kind of surprised that anyone (other than those who get an advantage) would do so. The admissions system is already arbitrary as hell.
- fuzionmonkey 15y ago
  If your last name is Asian then would omitting your ethnicity gain you anything? I would doubt it.
  - saryant 15y ago
    I’ll admit that I know nothing about the college admissions procedures as far as the selection process, but it seems to me that applicants should only be known by an arbitrary ID number. That is, admissions committees simply shouldn’t have access to this sort of (possibly discriminatory) information. Name, ethnicity, etc. Why not just hide it from them? I suppose there are certain parts of an application which could give away information that’s meant to be hidden—being president of the Asian-American Student Club would pretty well give away the applicant’s ethnicity.
    - jpdoctor 15y ago
      > but it seems to me that applicants should only be known by an arbitrary ID number. And then there's the whole "legacy admit" thing.
      - troels 15y ago
        Thanks. Haven't heard about [legacy admit](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_preferences http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_preferences) before - That's some serious nepotism at play.
    - metel 15y ago
      I too am no expert, but isn't discrimination on the basis of skin colour a 'feature' of the selection process? The novel thing here is that non-white students are not being discriminated in favour of for a change. Anonymising would prevent universities from discriminating on grounds of skin colour and could as a result get them into trouble with the government.
albemuth 15y ago
> "Not to really generalize, but a lot of Asians, they have perfect SATs, perfect GPAs, ... so it's hard to let them all in" Why is asking for ethnicity even legal?
- sliverstorm 15y ago
  For demographic surveys of data.
- fungi 15y ago
  ive never seen anything like it, is it a compulsory question? we often have "are you a aboriginal or torres strait islander" but that is always clearly marked as optional and only used for measuring progress in improving the absolutely disgusting state of education for indigenous australians. really i always thought america was better then this... TIL
  - loganfrederick 15y ago
    These questions are optional from my experience.
  - waffle_ss 15y ago
    They have always been optional in my experience (hence the whole point of the linked article). Perhaps you don't see questions like this as much because Australia is less diverse (92% white)?
- zorked 15y ago
  Yes, I had to fill a form for a an American corporation once that asked me about my ethnicity and it was very weird. It was the first time I saw anyone do that, much less in an official form - I was wondering all the time if that was legal - and according to the very detailed instructions I had to select an option that did not match my opinion about my ethnicity at all.
  - dalke 15y ago
    Companies which meet a certain criteria (eg, companies over 100 employees, or smaller companies which are federal government prime contractors) must file an EEOC-1 report to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. See http://www.eeoc.gov/employers/eeo1survey/faq.cfm http://www.eeoc.gov/employers/eeo1survey/faq.cfm .
narkee 15y ago
I don't understand why they require ethnic proportions to stay close to population averages. They don't reject high-performance black athletes for lower performing, asian athletes. I've never once heard anyone complain that their university's football team had a disproportionate number of non-asian people. Serious double standard there.
- sliverstorm 15y ago
  So that they can tell the public, "Look! We're not racist!" Even though they are pretty much making racist choices, the public is happy with it. Look not without, but within, for the enemy is us.
  - reinhardt 15y ago
    Indeed, the myth of equality across racial and cultural lines must be protected at any cost.
    - barrkel 15y ago
      The myth of equality of opportunity is indeed to be protected; but it is a myth, because uncountably more opportunities are afforded to the children of the privileged - things like affirmative action are tiny in the overall scale. I really don't like what you are insinuating. You appear to be implying that some people are inferior due to the ancestry of their parents, or the daily practices of their parents. You should learn something: that variance within groups is far larger than variance in the averages of groups; and thus race and culture are poor signals for use in judgement. To protect against this bias, we do hold to equality across racial and cultural lines; to do otherwise, is to be racist and simply morally wrong.
      - yummyfajitas 15y ago
        You appear to be implying that some people are inferior due to the ancestry of their parents, or the daily practices of their parents. No, the implication is that P(inferior | race X) != P(inferior | race Y). ...we do hold to equality across racial and cultural lines; There are two types of equality under discussion: a) Statistical equality - P(Q > cutoff | race X) == cdf(Q > cutoff| race Y), where Q is some quality measure which is not a function of race. b) Equality of treatment - using the same cutoff value for race X and race Y. Which type of equality are you referring to?
flipside 15y ago
I'd love to be able to explain my identity this way: Asian [x] - If you're more "white" White [x] - If you're more "asian" Both [x] - If you open minded or PC Neither [x] - If you want me to pick a side Hapa [x] - If you'll allow me all of the above Identity depends on where you stand.
BlackJack 15y ago
Full disclaimer: I'm a sophomore at Yale, my adviser last year was an admissions officer, and a friend of mine works in the admissions office. I'm also friends with the girl photographed, but that's irrelevant :) This is roughly how admissions works at Yale: 1. An officer reviews your application for 20-25 minutes. 1a. Some kids are clear rejects. 1500/2400 SAT and a 2.7 GPA, with no activities usually does the trick. The director (or an experienced officer) reviews these. 1b. Some kids are clear admits. These are incredibly rare - something like 20 kids out of 26000 I think? The director also reviews these but they're pretty much auto admits - think multiple gold medalists at IMO, IOI, and IPhO, stuff like that. 2. The officer writes a summary sheet that contains what the officer feels about you, good points, etc, if they like you. If they don't, you get put in the "no" pile. 2b. I believe most of these "no" applicants are reviewed by another officer, but not as deeply. The goal is to find false negatives - most people in the "no" pile stay there. 3. The application goes to a committee of 3-4 officers. They all read your profile and debate about whether or not to let you in. Your admissions officer is supposed to argue in your favor, and the others can argue for you or against you. Usually, most candidates at this point are solid, so the officers argue about possible negatives. Something like 70% of applicants are qualified to attend Yale, so it usually breaks down to what you'll contribute to the campus community, what kind of a person you are, etc. A lot of admissions officers were former Yalies, so I imagine they even ask "would I hang out with this person?". 4. If you're accepted, you're golden. If you don't make it past committee, you usually don't get in. Some people get waitlisted. They also review several of the "no's" to avoid false negatives, and some people might be brought to committee again. If you're borderline between "admit" and "reject," you will usually be rejected or waitlisted. There's just too many really good applicants. There is no EXPLICIT comparison of Asians to Asians. Nobody looks at your application and says "Oh, another Asian, let me turn on my asian scale!" What happens, subconsciously, is that the stereotypical asian profile is "high scoring, high gpa, piano/violin, tennis, math/science." So a lot of qualified asians get rejected because their admission officer can't find enough good arguments for them. Regardless of how qualified you are individually, Yale is trying to build a diverse class, so if you do the same thing as 1000 other candidates, it's very hard to vouch for you. "What do you bring to the campus that this other kid doesn't? , and that's the end of it. I don't think checking "Asian" or "not Asian" makes a huge difference, because in the end, it's your activities, recommendations, and essays that differentiate you. Once your scores are high enough, nobody is going to say "well Bob and Melinda are both cool, but Bob has a 2310 while Melinda has a 2270, so we should clearly go with Bob." That's just absurd - they always go with the person who will contribute more to Yale. I hope that dispels some of the myths you see and hear. Correlation does not imply causation. People don't get rejected because they ARE Asian - it's usually the lack of differentiation. Again, I don't represent Yale or anything like that, and this is just what I've heard, but I believe it's fairly accurate, and for most Asians, they'll figure it out by your name, so a box isn't making a huge difference. Edit: Legacy students (parent(s) went to Yale), recruited athletes, and under-represented minorities have higher admission rates than the overall pool. I don't know why or by how much or anything like that. This exists at almost every elite school.
clvv 15y ago
An asian high school senior here. I'm currently in the process of applying to colleges. In most college applications, demographics are listed under the section where they say the information you provide won't hurt your change of getting in. I have not and will not lie about my race on any of the applications. I understand that, statistically, it will hurt my chance of getting into a top-tier college, considering I don't have perfect SAT score and GPA. But I believe that the admission officers would be wise enough to evaluate a person as a whole instead of just puting "tags" on him/her.
- gwern 15y ago
  > I understand that, statistically, it will hurt my chance of getting into a top-tier college, considering I don't have perfect SAT score and GPA. But I believe that the admission officers would be wise enough to evaluate a person as a whole instead of just puting "tags" on him/her. Er... what? So you believe putting the wrong tag on yourself will hurt your evaluation by the admission officers; but you also believe they are wise enough to not just put tags on yourself. You're saying something here, but I don't know what it is.
- realitygrill 15y ago
  Wisdom is rare, and not easily discerned. Tread carefully.
anatoly 15y ago
I was 13, I think, when I went to compete in the all-Ukrainian math olympiad, back a bunch of years ago when it was called a "republican" olympiad because Ukraine was a republic in the USSR and not a separate country. It was a long event: delegations from all the regions came and were housed in a sort of summer camp for two weeks. As we were getting registered, one of the organizers who was getting everyone's details for the official forms told me she needed to know my ethnicity. I was pretty naive, and after thinking it over for a few minutes I decided to ask her for advice. I said to her: "Well, I'm really not sure what to tell you, see, my mother's Jewish, and my father's Ukrainian. Can you write them both? Or am I supposed to choose somehow? What do you think?" I'd actually thought it through a bit more and was ready to continue telling her how my parents were divorced and I was living with my mother so I should probably choose that side... but I decided to wait for her response first. She looked at me a bit funny (I think now that she was trying to see if I was being ironic. I wasn't). She held a pause. And then she said firmly: "Let's just write you up as a Ukrainian, shall we?"
- jpdoctor 15y ago
  It reminds me: I believe in Feyman's day, Jews were fighting a similar problem to Asians now. I'm pretty sure that SAM (a Jewish frat?) was gone by the 80s at MIT, as a calibration point. Edit: I was a little confused, he was turned away from Columbia for being Jewish. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_quota http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_quota
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
  - neutronicus 15y ago
    I remember reading an article in ... I believe it was the New Republic ... that said that the "holistic admissions process" of today, with the essays, activities, etc. supplanted the earlier more test-scores / grades-centric approach at the Ivy League precisely in an attempt to admit fewer Jews.
    - 15y ago
tokenadult 15y ago
"Race/ethnicity unknown" is the fastest-growing category reported for enrolled students in United States colleges and universities, with more than 1 million students so reported to the federal government in the most recent year. http://www.acenet.edu/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Programs_and_Services&TEMPLATE=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm&CONTENTID=42703 http://www.acenet.edu/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Programs_and_S... The federal regulations on the subject http://www.ed.gov/legislation/FedRegister/other/2007-4/101907c.html http://www.ed.gov/legislation/FedRegister/other/2007-4/10190... require all colleges to ask, but no students to tell, which of the federally defined race or ethnicity categories http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/fedreg_1997standards http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/fedreg_1997standards they belong to. A growing number of students decline to answer the questions, which are clearly marked as optional on all college application forms. Harvard http://members.ucan-network.org/harvard http://members.ucan-network.org/harvard reports 12 percent of its enrolled undergraduates as "race/ethnicity unknown," and several other selective colleges have higher percentages of students reported as unknown race or ethnicity. Several state university systems, by state law, may not consider student race or ethnicity at all as part of the admission process. The definitive online FAQ on the issue of race and ethnicity self-identification in college admission in the United States http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/1228264-race-college-admission-faq-discussion-9-a.html http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/12282... links out to other relevant laws and official definitions and news stories, and gives links to reported enrollment figures for a wide variety of colleges. After edit: A comment at the same comment level as this comment appears to be referring to a college's claimed rationale when it says: I don't understand why they require ethnic proportions to stay close to population averages. They don't. Indeed, it is strictly illegal to have admission quotas by race, since the Bakke decision decades ago. If you look at the actual enrollment figures, linked to from this comment, you will see that that is not what happens in practice either. Another comment mentioned an applicant's view that he should not "lie about his race." This view motivates my children NOT marking anything on the forms, because the form questions are optional for applicants, and because my children think it is a lie to describe themselves as belonging to any narrower category than humankind. (From an old-fashioned American point of view, my children could be described as "biracial," but we prefer the term "human" and accept the term "postracial.") I'm a baby boomer, which is another way of saying that I'm a good bit older than most people who post on Hacker News. I distinctly remember the day that President John F. Kennedy was assassinated--the most memorable day of early childhood for many people in my generation--and I remember the "long hot summer" and other events of the 1960s civil rights movement. One early memory I have is of a second grade classmate (I still remember his name, which alas is just common enough that it is hard to Google him up) who moved back to Minnesota with his northern "white" parents after spending his early years in Alabama. He told me frightening stories about Ku Klux Klan violence to black people (the polite term in those days was "Negroes"), including killing babies, and I was very upset to hear about that kind of terrorism happening in the United States. He made me aware of a society in which people didn't all treat one another with decency and human compassion, unlike the only kind of society I was initially aware of from growing up where I did. So I followed subsequent news about the civil rights movement, including the activities of Martin Luther King, Jr. up to his assassination, with great interest. It happens that I had a fifth-grade teacher, a typically pale, tall, and blonde Norwegian-American, who was a civil rights activist and who spent her summers in the south as a freedom rider. She used to tell our class about how she had to modify her car (by removing the dome light and adding a locking gas cap) so that Klan snipers couldn't shoot her as she opened her car door at night or put foreign substances into her gas tank. She has been a civil rights activist all her life, and when I Googled her a few years ago and regained acquaintance with her, I was not at all surprised to find that she is a member of the civil rights commission of the town where I grew up. One day in fifth grade we had a guest speaker in our class, a young man who was then studying at St. Olaf College through the A Better Chance (ABC) affirmative action program. (To me, the term "affirmative action" still means active recruitment of underrepresented minority students, as it did in those days, and I have always thought that such programs are a very good idea, as some people have family connections to selective colleges, but many other people don't.) During that school year (1968-1969), there was a current controversy in the United States about whether the term "Negro" or "Afro-American" or "black" was most polite. So a girl in my class asked our visitor, "What do you want to be called, 'black' or 'Afro-American'?" His answer was, "I'd rather be called Henry." Henry's answer to my classmate's innocent question really got me thinking. Why can't individual human beings have the right to be treated as one more member of the general human race?
cyrus_ 15y ago
Serious question: Is there any reason not to just lie about your ethnicity? Why not put "black" or "native american" on your app to really up your chances? I mean, I'm sure the school would reject you if they knew you were lying about it, but there really isn't any way for them to tell, is there?
- andrewflnr 15y ago
  They'll know when you show up for class. At best, that seems like a bad start for the year, if anyone from admissions happens to match your name and face.
  - forensic 15y ago
    This isn't true. Lots of people don't look their race for one thing
    - sirclueless 15y ago
      Not to mention how politically incorrect it would be to try to call someone out on it: "Hey, aren't you Louis Smith? You said you were black on the application, but you don't look black at all!" I can't imagine it happening.
      - tokenadult 15y ago
        Not to mention how politically incorrect it would be to try to call someone out on it: "Hey, aren't you Louis Smith? You said you were black on the application, but you don't look black at all!" I can't imagine it happening. I saw it happen, back at my law school in the 1980s. (I have no comment about how generally this might happen today.) The classmate of mine who was called out about his "race" self-identification had a dad who almost anyone in the United States would identify as "black" (who definitely had African ancestry, along with European ancestry) and a mom whose historically traceable ancestry was all European. He (the student) himself looked "white," so much so that he could pass as my brother. According to a report in our university's daily newspaper, after his presence in the Black Student Association (to which new students who had indicated that they were black were automatically invited by the law school) became noted, when he filled out his application forms, he checked the boxes for both "white" and "black." (This was before "choose one or more" was the standard language next to race categories on admission forms.) He stayed in law school, and he graduated, and he still practices law. But the other members of the Black Student Association ostracized him, even though he shared many aspects of the black experience in his daily life, and would have legally been classified as black in any southern state during segregation. (Our state, Minnesota, has never had de jure "race" segregation nor has it ever had a law against "interracial" marriage.)
jklp 15y ago
> "Not to really generalize, but a lot of Asians, they have perfect SATs, perfect GPAs, ... so it's hard to let them all in," Olmstead says. I didn't know there was a quota on how many Asian students a college could accept. And besides, doesn't a college want the best students in their college, regardless of ethnicity?
- localhost3000 15y ago
  'best student' != 'best score/gpa'
  - gujk 15y ago
    Thank you. It is insane how many people think college admissions is the official scoreboard oof high school, and not something to do with choosing students who are well matched to the college.
    - fatjokes 15y ago
      It's not insane. It's simply objective. How do you define "best match"? The gut feeling of the admissions officer? You need an objective measure.
temphn 15y ago
According to PBS, Race is an Illusion: http://www.pbs.org/race/000_General/000_00-Home.htm http://www.pbs.org/race/000_General/000_00-Home.htm Jared Diamond concurs: http://www.learntoquestion.com/resources/database/archives/001377.html http://www.learntoquestion.com/resources/database/archives/0... If you believe their arguments, there is no scientific basis for categorizing someone on the basis of race. Appearance is particularly hazardous. Therefore, why can't Asians mark black on the application? Who is to say they are not black if they self-identify as black? According to PBS, Jared Diamond, and many sociology departments, it is impossible to administer a genetic test that distinguishes African Americans from Asians, so self-identification is the only measure that matters. So: why would Asians simply self-identify as white? Why not self-identify as black? If race just a sociocultural construct, well, many Asian Americans certainly are into rap music and cultural markers that are associated with socially constructed category of African American. So why aren't they black?
- suivix 15y ago
  Even if race were not an illusion, they are separated by only 60,000 years or so of evolution which is barely anything. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recent_African_origin_of_modern_humans http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recent_African_origin_of_mode...
- FaceKicker 15y ago
  I don't think you even need to get into the "race is an illusion" argument to self-identify as a different race. I remember when I applied, all the applications asked the question with phrasing like "Which race do you consider yourself?" I wondered if there would be any consequence if I answered Black or Hispanic (I'm white). Probably not, I'd think, as they can't prove I don't "consider myself" one of those. Surprising that it doesn't happen more often. Or maybe it does...
- narkee 15y ago
  I haven't read much on the subject, but the idea that races can't be separated based on genetics is either false, or due to the fact that we don't have enough sensitivity in the measurement. Phenotypically, I can easily identify a black person vs. an asian person, with nearly 100% accuracy. What I'm seeing are phenotypic differences in hair type, skin colour, facial structure, etc. that are all defined by genetics. It's ludicrous to think that I can't sort people into groups based on these apparent differences(and I'm talking broad racial categories, not Ukranians vs. Russians or anything). Ignoring that might be PC, but it's definitely not realistic. Just to be clear, I'm not insinuating anything about intelligence, ability, or whatever. I'm just saying that to deny that there are distinct categories that humans can be classified into is unrealistic. There may be edge cases, but nobody would mistake one of China's 1.6 billion people for an east African.
JohnLBevan 15y ago
If a few Asians don't tick Asian as their ethnicity when asked, that's going to reduce the stats for the number of Asians attending the university, effectively creating a negative feedback loop.
localhost3000 15y ago
I recently went through the b-school admissions process (admitted to several 'elite' schools but, ultimately, decided not to enroll). It was a remarkable experience. Remarkable in that it made me feel completely inadequate and commoditized...and I was a successful applicant! There's an entire industry built upon the panic and stress of young over-achievers who believe their life will be defined by the rank of their school. It's called admissions consulting...and the rates they charge. oh, brother. I feel supremely sorry for any 16-year-old trying to get into a top ranked school right now. As a fairly stable 26-year-old it made me depressed like nothing before. It's a broken process that's been spoiled rotten by the bottom feeders who will tell a kid "you won't get in unless you pay me five grand to help you." (i couldn't afford it...) If you want to see some people really freak out over race and admissions, talk to some Indian B-school hopefuls (note: I am not Indian). They are absolutely bucketed and compete against one another.
- mrfairladyz 15y ago
  As a 16-year-old who will be applying to these elite schools next year, I can vouch for the things you're saying. The competition is insane, and it puts the prospective applicants through a lot. On the topic of race - It's no unusual occurrence to hear some HYPSM reject at my school (pretty average/ordinary California high school) say "I was rejected because I was Asian/White/Indian/whatever." It really bothers me because these kids never had a shot at those top schools anyway. They were above-average at an ordinary high school. They really had nothing to differentiate them from any other applicant. It was the same "Smart kid with good grades and an SAT score above 2000 who was loosely involved in a club or two." The mentality is, if you get a 2000+ SAT score, then certainly you are some sort of genius who belongs at Harvard. You participated in two clubs?! Wow! You got A's in a few of your AP classes?! Look out Stanford! They think there is some formula to admission, where it's just a stats competition. If you have the right stats, then you're in. But their goal numbers are weak, and they detract from what really matters, and that is being amazing and following your passion (see here - http://mitadmissions.org/blogs/entry/esse-quam-videri http://mitadmissions.org/blogs/entry/esse-quam-videri). And when they get rejected, their first reaction is to blame the black kid. It bothers me because there were other people of their race accepted, and they were accepted because they proved their worth to that college, just like the black kid did. The sore losers complaining don't see that they offered nothing unique or notable to the college that any one of the other thousands of Regular Genius Kids(TM) didn't. All things considered, and race not considered, it's the amazing and truly notable kids who get accepted. Whether white, black, Asian, or whatever, those amazing individuals proved that they themselves could offer something truly valuable to the college, and they were accepted as a result. There are no average Asians at MIT. There are no average black people at MIT. There are no average anyone at MIT, they're all amazing in some way. EDIT: Disclaimer, I'm white.
reader5000 15y ago
If I were Asian, my "college strategy" would be to not apply, since I wouldn't want to be an indentured servant for the next 15-20 years of my life paying off usurious student loan debts to crotchety Western institutions that are currently enjoying bubble tuition rates without offering remotely commensurate value.
- gujk 15y ago
  The USA has financial aid available to qualified students.
- akavi 15y ago
  Which is exactly what wouldn't happen should you go to any of the "elite" schools. Harvard, Princeton, Yale, and others go to great lengths to provide adequate financial aid, all of which is provided in the form of grants, not loans. I'm very curious to know what could provide a greater return on investment than spending four years at Harvard for free.
dennisgorelik 15y ago
I wonder how it would work out if Asian applicant self-identifies herself as African-American?
- nivertech 15y ago
  This guy "won him the title of president of the Black Student Union, despite not being, well, black" [1] [1] http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/160/bill-nguyen-startups http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/160/bill-nguyen-startups
  - dennisgorelik 15y ago
    Thanks. So Bill Nguyen proved that it's possible to self-identify yourself under different race. University Admission Committee may not mind such "self race re-branding" practice too, because university ratios of admitted minorities would be improving as well.
    - nivertech 15y ago
      The article talking about high school, not college. Anyway I find, that Americans a little bit confused about things like race, ethnicity and nationality. Asking to fill nationality in official documents is legitimate. Asking for ethnicity is borderline. Asking to fill a race is barbaric.
      - dennisgorelik 15y ago
        I guess universities are barbaric then.
      - Duff 15y ago
        Have you ever dealt with an academic bureaucracy? Barbarism is a good description!
tle9 15y ago
This is inherently true. Unless you're at a very white dominated school ie Notre Dame where it helps to be a minority.
TheCowboy 15y ago
I think race acts as more of a red herring when it comes to this matter. This entire thread just sounds like privileged or talented people(nothing wrong with being either) fighting over admittance to elite universities. After all, people qualified to get into Yale, and this is a large number of applicants, will still get into a very good university. Maybe the problem is that going to an elite school matters too much for arbitrary social reasons. We've all heard and read about how hiring at places, such as elite financial institutions, will simply discard any application from a person who didn't go to an elite university. No one wants to lose out on opportunity. Why can't elite universities increase enrollment to increase the number of opportunities? They have the endowments for it. I'm not aware of any Ivy struggling to pay its bills. If society thinks that people who attend these schools are a better value, then wouldn't it be of benefit to try to expand capacity? It seems like an artificially created scarcity. Do top schools feel their brand is diminished if they start accepting 2k students vs 1.5k?
- greiskul 15y ago
  Because their brand CAN be diminished if they start accepting more students. More students need more professors, and it might be hard fighting over who gets to hire the best professors. It might also change the student community. I go to a university that is considered prestigious in my country, and what I like the most about it is how it's so easy to find incredibly smart people on the campus, with which you can have great intellectual discussions. If there were more people, it could be harder to find who these great people are. It's a Brazilian public university, which means it's free, and while recently it was created a quota for black and public school students, the majority of students is accepted in a completely color, name, cultural blind manner.
  - TheCowboy 15y ago
    The university system has created a surplus of people with phds who are qualified and intellectually capable of being university professors. There are a lot of good articles about how the job market for those wanting to become professors is terrible.
- estevez 15y ago
deleted 15y ago
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chegra84 15y ago
By any chance, is this a honey pot post? Flag.
pilom 15y ago
"a member of HAPA, the Half-Asian People's Association" I was under the impression that Hapa was a Hawaiian word for "a person of mixed race." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hapa http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hapa When did the Asians at Harvard decide to steal that one?
wallflower 15y ago
My friend (Asian wife) hopes that his son might get into MIT. His son is not a superstar but has done quite well in math competitions. His son was a pretty good baseball player until they had to decide between Math competitions and sports. I always tell him that his son has to become more interesting - less one-dimension Math/Science stud - like Cal Newport talks about on his blog. And that some schools for MIT could be looking for a few good baseball players. The interesting thing is that the cutthroat high school his son is enrolled at - the AP weed-out courses, the hardest ones are the humanities. Courses like Modern European History. > For these students, extracurricular activities play a different role than for their peers. They don’t use activities to signal their qualities, they use them instead to transform themselves into more interesting people. In other words, what’s important about an activity is not its impressiveness, but its impact on your personality. http://calnewport.com/blog/2010/02/18/want-to-get-into-harvard-spend-more-time-staring-at-the-clouds-rethinking-the-role-of-extracurricular-activities-in-college-admissions/ http://calnewport.com/blog/2010/02/18/want-to-get-into-harva...
wyclif 15y ago
True story: my wife is Asian (from the Philippines). She's done with school, but some of her friends are not. When they ask me for advice on this point, I tell them to check "Hispanic" instead of "Asian." Most Filipino ancestry is a combination of Chinese, Spanish, and Malay, but since the Philippines was colonised by Spain in c.16, it usually works like a charm in differentiating them from the mass of students with Korean, Chinese, and Japanese ancestry.
code_duck 15y ago
If you're half Asian and half European, why is checking 'White' considered hiding half your identity? That only makes sense in the background of US racial views, where Barack Obama is known as Black due to 50% of his heritage. So, if you're not 'pure white', you're not 'white', according to society. I feel it is worrisome that such an old style racist line of thought is ingrained into our culture in a way that few question.
estevez 15y ago
Stories like this irk me, because they overlook the larger injustice of continuing to think about elite schools as meritocratic institutions, when they are plainly not. At Harvard, for example, the bottom half of the income distribution makes up 6.5% of students.[1] When we consider the most selective schools in aggregate, we see that nearly three-quarters of incoming freshmen at those schools are drawn from the top quartile of incomes.[2] The illusion of merit that graduation from these schools imparts leads to a false sense of mastery amongst those who've been able to scale the pyramid of achievement, a self-deception that has had pretty profound consequences for the country since, oh I don't know, say 2008 or so. [1]: http://chronicle.com/article/Pell-Grant-Recipients-Are/126892/ http://chronicle.com/article/Pell-Grant-Recipients-Are/12689... [2]: http://books.google.com/books?id=4JyQus8r9JYC&pg=PA150&lpg=PA150&dq=harvard+yale+princeton+top+income+quartile&source=bl&ots=YYC8OrzhZF&sig=Lxidsb9ab3gw0p8rnNGwrjFlb3E&hl=en&ei=4_TaTteCDYfWiAKI0sS-CQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=harvard%20yale%20princeton%20top%20income%20quartile&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=4JyQus8r9JYC&pg=PA150&#...
- jwingy 15y ago
  According to this study (http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/27/sat-scores-and-family-income/ http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/27/sat-scores-and-...), there's a clear correlation between students from high income backgrounds having higher scores versus students from lower income backgrounds having lower scores as well.
  - estevez 15y ago
    I suggest this piece [1] by David Leonhart. As he points out in the final paragraph: [...] all else equal, a low-income applicant was no more likely to get in than a high-income applicant with the same SAT score. [1]: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/25/business/economy/25leonhardt.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/25/business/economy/25leonhar...
  - forensic 15y ago
    The idea that test scores are "meritocratic" is itself a myth. Wealthy people score higher on tests for very simple socioeconomic reasons that are not related to any innate merit but rather to the advantages conferred by an aristocratic upbringing. Attendance at elite schools and the myth of the "meritocratic test score" is just the most recent form of upper class hegemony. It's a fiction created to justify hereditary rule. The far majority of wealth, power, and status is obtained through heredity and nepotism. The "meritocratic test score" myth is there to hide this simple fact.
Sukotto 15y ago
When asked for your race, answer "mongrel" http://yarchive.net/risks/mongrel.html http://yarchive.net/risks/mongrel.html Quoting from the anecdote: All of my known forebears came from Europe, mostly from Southern Germany with a few from England, Ireland, and Scotland. A glance in the mirror, however, indicated that there was Middle Eastern blood in my veins. I have a semitic nose and skin that tans so easily that I am often darker than many people who pass for black. Did I inherit this from a Hebrew, an Arab, a Gypsy or perhaps one of the Turks who periodically pillaged Central Europe? Maybe it was from a Blackfoot Indian that an imaginative aunt thinks was in our family tree. I will probably never know. As an arrogant young computer scientist, I believed that if there is any decision that you can't figure out how to program, the question is wrong. I couldn't figure out how to program racial classification, so I concluded that there isn't such a thing. I subsequently reviewed some scientific literature that confirmed this belief. "Race" is, at best, a fuzzy concept about typical physical properties of certain populations. At worst, of course, it is used to justify more contemptible behavior than any concept other than religion. In answer to the race question on the security form, I decided to put "mongrel." This seemed like an appropriate answer to a meaningless question.
markvp 15y ago
I went to a high school in NYC with an Asian plurality, and it was pretty well known among the students and the counselors that being Asian was not something that would help you get into college. In any case, there's a suit 'Fisher v University of Texas at Austin' which experts think will be heading to the Supreme Court sometime in 2012, and may have a good chance of bringing education a little closer to the meritocracy it should be: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/16/sunday-review/college-diversity-nears-its-last-stand.html http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/16/sunday-review/college-dive...
sirclueless 15y ago
This is what I would like to see: Two comparative histograms of SAT scores for Asian and non-Asian applicants to Ivy League schools. One for all applicants, and the other for those accepted. Here is my suspicion (or what I would like to hear): Asian students are significantly higher-scoring, in both histograms. Such a result would go a long way towards vindicating the college admission process, and suggest that universities don't explicitly judge those who mark "Asian" by a different standard but rather choose to largely discount SAT scores (and by proxy academic performance). Similar studies were used to discredit claims that engineering and science departments were practicing gender discrimination against women. Does anyone have a reference to a study on race in undergraduate admissions that takes this approach?
rdl 15y ago
I'm curious how carefully these things are checked. Like many white people with ancestors from Appalachia, I'm sure I'm at least slightly Native American. Is it fair to mark Native American (and white?) on these forms?
- tokenadult 15y ago
  As is mentioned in the official federal definitions, mentioned in the online FAQ linked to from a comment above, http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3309338 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3309338 the federal definition of "American Indian or Alaska Native" is "A person having origins in any of the original peoples of North and South America (including Central America), and who maintains tribal affiliation or community attachment." In other words, if you don't have community attachment to an Indian tribe, or formal legally recognized tribal membership, you are not a Native American or Alaska Native.
reader5000 15y ago
I think the basic thing is, if you are of race X, you would prefer it if race X continues getting admission in reasonable numbers to the status-branding factories of America (i.e. colleges). That preference is thoroughly, whole-cloth racist, but I think it is valid. If it happens to be the case that race Y dominates admissions (or race Z can't seem to get a leg up), whether that domination be through genetic or cultural factors (or both), it is arguably racist to handicap admissions by appeal to soft factors. But consider: Let's imagine (e.g.) global warming has destroyed US agriculture so all the gringos in the US have to migrate south to Mexico. The University of Mexico is (say) the premier university of Mexico, the Harvard all the best Mexican students want to attend. Historically, whites outperform latinos on admissions numbers (SAT and GPA). Would it make sense then for the University of Mexico to cease accepting latino-Mexicans (or substantially decrease their admissions rates) in favor of the new white-Mexicans with higher numbers? Would that be the fairest thing to do? Or would the U of M admissions board say things like "yeah whites have good numbers but they all kind of look the same to us. All from the same middle class families, all played tennis and hockey in high school, all want to be business/psych majors and join greek fraternities. We look at other things than just numbers." I'm not entirely sure it's unfair to handicap asians, or assist blacks, if we've essentially industrialized the production of status-signalling - fixing the recommended amount of prestige and job offers a person should receive for the rest of his life at age 18 - and have to determine some means of doling it out.
beastman82 15y ago
That article is in desperate need of citations.
itmag 15y ago
Is it possible to be admitted to a top-tier US university as a non-US resident (I'm Swedish)? How does that work with SATs and stuff then? Also, is it possible to be admitted if one is outside the typical age range of applicants (ie 18-19)? I just don't know how these things work for you in the US, so I had to ask :)
cpher 15y ago
So, if a private school shouldn't/can't discriminate on the basis of race, should they be able to discriminate on the basis of religious affiliation/belief? I ask this as a graduate of a Christian liberal arts college, which discriminates on the basis of religious beliefs. It's not entirely on topic but I think the "logic" still applies. Or does it?

150 points by thomasgerbe 15y ago

vaksel 15y ago

I don't see why colleges should even be allowed to ask that on applications.

brandnewlow 15y ago
No one has to answer.
- winter_blue 15y ago
  But can they figure out by inspecting your parents (as it says in the article) ? Additionally if they have a pic that would it give it away.
  - veyron 15y ago
    Historically that's why many schools asked people to submit a picture

brandnewlow 15y ago

I would advise an asian college applicant to an elite school to strongly consider not checking the "asian" box. It is absolutely true that they're in competition against the other asian applicants. It's also absolutely true that the asian applicants have extremely common profiles in terms of activities, test scores, grades, and points of view. When I was an admissions office for a short time, my advice to asian applicants looking to be noticed was to go to clown school, perform as a semi-professional magician, or even excel at sports. Violin, cello, piano, essays about translating for your immigrant parents, computers, math, science...all that stuff blends together after awhile and makes it hard for an admissions office to remember you when sitting around the table voting on applicants.

yangez 15y ago
I'm curious. In your experience, was it just those activities (Violin, cello, piano, etc) that were beaten to death and no longer desirable, or was more about the uniformity of Asian applicants? For example, if a white kid had the same piano + math achievements as an Asian one did in the same year, would he stand out more?
- brandnewlow 15y ago
  The white kid might stand out a bit more, but he'd probably get lost in the crush, too. There's got to be a twist, there's got to be an angle. So a kid with incredible credentials who plays the violin and is awesome at math....who grew up in an igloo is going to get extra attention. That same kid who went to a math/science academy in NYC has a tough path in front of him.

keiferski 15y ago

Seeing that it is optional to report your ethnicity, I'm kind of surprised that anyone (other than those who get an advantage) would do so. The admissions system is already arbitrary as hell.

fuzionmonkey 15y ago
If your last name is Asian then would omitting your ethnicity gain you anything? I would doubt it.
- saryant 15y ago
  I’ll admit that I know nothing about the college admissions procedures as far as the selection process, but it seems to me that applicants should only be known by an arbitrary ID number. That is, admissions committees simply shouldn’t have access to this sort of (possibly discriminatory) information. Name, ethnicity, etc. Why not just hide it from them? I suppose there are certain parts of an application which could give away information that’s meant to be hidden—being president of the Asian-American Student Club would pretty well give away the applicant’s ethnicity.
  - jpdoctor 15y ago
    > but it seems to me that applicants should only be known by an arbitrary ID number. And then there's the whole "legacy admit" thing.
    - troels 15y ago
      Thanks. Haven't heard about [legacy admit](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_preferences http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_preferences) before - That's some serious nepotism at play.
  - metel 15y ago
    I too am no expert, but isn't discrimination on the basis of skin colour a 'feature' of the selection process? The novel thing here is that non-white students are not being discriminated in favour of for a change. Anonymising would prevent universities from discriminating on grounds of skin colour and could as a result get them into trouble with the government.

albemuth 15y ago

> "Not to really generalize, but a lot of Asians, they have perfect SATs, perfect GPAs, ... so it's hard to let them all in" Why is asking for ethnicity even legal?

sliverstorm 15y ago
For demographic surveys of data.
fungi 15y ago
ive never seen anything like it, is it a compulsory question? we often have "are you a aboriginal or torres strait islander" but that is always clearly marked as optional and only used for measuring progress in improving the absolutely disgusting state of education for indigenous australians. really i always thought america was better then this... TIL
- loganfrederick 15y ago
  These questions are optional from my experience.
- waffle_ss 15y ago
  They have always been optional in my experience (hence the whole point of the linked article). Perhaps you don't see questions like this as much because Australia is less diverse (92% white)?
zorked 15y ago
Yes, I had to fill a form for a an American corporation once that asked me about my ethnicity and it was very weird. It was the first time I saw anyone do that, much less in an official form - I was wondering all the time if that was legal - and according to the very detailed instructions I had to select an option that did not match my opinion about my ethnicity at all.
- dalke 15y ago
  Companies which meet a certain criteria (eg, companies over 100 employees, or smaller companies which are federal government prime contractors) must file an EEOC-1 report to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. See http://www.eeoc.gov/employers/eeo1survey/faq.cfm http://www.eeoc.gov/employers/eeo1survey/faq.cfm .

narkee 15y ago

I don't understand why they require ethnic proportions to stay close to population averages. They don't reject high-performance black athletes for lower performing, asian athletes. I've never once heard anyone complain that their university's football team had a disproportionate number of non-asian people. Serious double standard there.

sliverstorm 15y ago
So that they can tell the public, "Look! We're not racist!" Even though they are pretty much making racist choices, the public is happy with it. Look not without, but within, for the enemy is us.
- reinhardt 15y ago
  Indeed, the myth of equality across racial and cultural lines must be protected at any cost.
  - barrkel 15y ago
    The myth of equality of opportunity is indeed to be protected; but it is a myth, because uncountably more opportunities are afforded to the children of the privileged - things like affirmative action are tiny in the overall scale. I really don't like what you are insinuating. You appear to be implying that some people are inferior due to the ancestry of their parents, or the daily practices of their parents. You should learn something: that variance within groups is far larger than variance in the averages of groups; and thus race and culture are poor signals for use in judgement. To protect against this bias, we do hold to equality across racial and cultural lines; to do otherwise, is to be racist and simply morally wrong.
    - yummyfajitas 15y ago
      You appear to be implying that some people are inferior due to the ancestry of their parents, or the daily practices of their parents. No, the implication is that P(inferior | race X) != P(inferior | race Y). ...we do hold to equality across racial and cultural lines; There are two types of equality under discussion: a) Statistical equality - P(Q > cutoff | race X) == cdf(Q > cutoff| race Y), where Q is some quality measure which is not a function of race. b) Equality of treatment - using the same cutoff value for race X and race Y. Which type of equality are you referring to?

flipside 15y ago

I'd love to be able to explain my identity this way: Asian [x] - If you're more "white" White [x] - If you're more "asian" Both [x] - If you open minded or PC Neither [x] - If you want me to pick a side Hapa [x] - If you'll allow me all of the above Identity depends on where you stand.

BlackJack 15y ago

Full disclaimer: I'm a sophomore at Yale, my adviser last year was an admissions officer, and a friend of mine works in the admissions office. I'm also friends with the girl photographed, but that's irrelevant :) This is roughly how admissions works at Yale: 1. An officer reviews your application for 20-25 minutes. 1a. Some kids are clear rejects. 1500/2400 SAT and a 2.7 GPA, with no activities usually does the trick. The director (or an experienced officer) reviews these. 1b. Some kids are clear admits. These are incredibly rare - something like 20 kids out of 26000 I think? The director also reviews these but they're pretty much auto admits - think multiple gold medalists at IMO, IOI, and IPhO, stuff like that. 2. The officer writes a summary sheet that contains what the officer feels about you, good points, etc, if they like you. If they don't, you get put in the "no" pile. 2b. I believe most of these "no" applicants are reviewed by another officer, but not as deeply. The goal is to find false negatives - most people in the "no" pile stay there. 3. The application goes to a committee of 3-4 officers. They all read your profile and debate about whether or not to let you in. Your admissions officer is supposed to argue in your favor, and the others can argue for you or against you. Usually, most candidates at this point are solid, so the officers argue about possible negatives. Something like 70% of applicants are qualified to attend Yale, so it usually breaks down to what you'll contribute to the campus community, what kind of a person you are, etc. A lot of admissions officers were former Yalies, so I imagine they even ask "would I hang out with this person?". 4. If you're accepted, you're golden. If you don't make it past committee, you usually don't get in. Some people get waitlisted. They also review several of the "no's" to avoid false negatives, and some people might be brought to committee again. If you're borderline between "admit" and "reject," you will usually be rejected or waitlisted. There's just too many really good applicants. There is no EXPLICIT comparison of Asians to Asians. Nobody looks at your application and says "Oh, another Asian, let me turn on my asian scale!" What happens, subconsciously, is that the stereotypical asian profile is "high scoring, high gpa, piano/violin, tennis, math/science." So a lot of qualified asians get rejected because their admission officer can't find enough good arguments for them. Regardless of how qualified you are individually, Yale is trying to build a diverse class, so if you do the same thing as 1000 other candidates, it's very hard to vouch for you. "What do you bring to the campus that this other kid doesn't? , and that's the end of it. I don't think checking "Asian" or "not Asian" makes a huge difference, because in the end, it's your activities, recommendations, and essays that differentiate you. Once your scores are high enough, nobody is going to say "well Bob and Melinda are both cool, but Bob has a 2310 while Melinda has a 2270, so we should clearly go with Bob." That's just absurd - they always go with the person who will contribute more to Yale. I hope that dispels some of the myths you see and hear. Correlation does not imply causation. People don't get rejected because they ARE Asian - it's usually the lack of differentiation. Again, I don't represent Yale or anything like that, and this is just what I've heard, but I believe it's fairly accurate, and for most Asians, they'll figure it out by your name, so a box isn't making a huge difference. Edit: Legacy students (parent(s) went to Yale), recruited athletes, and under-represented minorities have higher admission rates than the overall pool. I don't know why or by how much or anything like that. This exists at almost every elite school.

clvv 15y ago

An asian high school senior here. I'm currently in the process of applying to colleges. In most college applications, demographics are listed under the section where they say the information you provide won't hurt your change of getting in. I have not and will not lie about my race on any of the applications. I understand that, statistically, it will hurt my chance of getting into a top-tier college, considering I don't have perfect SAT score and GPA. But I believe that the admission officers would be wise enough to evaluate a person as a whole instead of just puting "tags" on him/her.

gwern 15y ago
> I understand that, statistically, it will hurt my chance of getting into a top-tier college, considering I don't have perfect SAT score and GPA. But I believe that the admission officers would be wise enough to evaluate a person as a whole instead of just puting "tags" on him/her. Er... what? So you believe putting the wrong tag on yourself will hurt your evaluation by the admission officers; but you also believe they are wise enough to not just put tags on yourself. You're saying something here, but I don't know what it is.
realitygrill 15y ago
Wisdom is rare, and not easily discerned. Tread carefully.

anatoly 15y ago

I was 13, I think, when I went to compete in the all-Ukrainian math olympiad, back a bunch of years ago when it was called a "republican" olympiad because Ukraine was a republic in the USSR and not a separate country. It was a long event: delegations from all the regions came and were housed in a sort of summer camp for two weeks. As we were getting registered, one of the organizers who was getting everyone's details for the official forms told me she needed to know my ethnicity. I was pretty naive, and after thinking it over for a few minutes I decided to ask her for advice. I said to her: "Well, I'm really not sure what to tell you, see, my mother's Jewish, and my father's Ukrainian. Can you write them both? Or am I supposed to choose somehow? What do you think?" I'd actually thought it through a bit more and was ready to continue telling her how my parents were divorced and I was living with my mother so I should probably choose that side... but I decided to wait for her response first. She looked at me a bit funny (I think now that she was trying to see if I was being ironic. I wasn't). She held a pause. And then she said firmly: "Let's just write you up as a Ukrainian, shall we?"

jpdoctor 15y ago
It reminds me: I believe in Feyman's day, Jews were fighting a similar problem to Asians now. I'm pretty sure that SAM (a Jewish frat?) was gone by the 80s at MIT, as a calibration point. Edit: I was a little confused, he was turned away from Columbia for being Jewish. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_quota http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_quota
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- neutronicus 15y ago
  I remember reading an article in ... I believe it was the New Republic ... that said that the "holistic admissions process" of today, with the essays, activities, etc. supplanted the earlier more test-scores / grades-centric approach at the Ivy League precisely in an attempt to admit fewer Jews.
  - 15y ago

tokenadult 15y ago

"Race/ethnicity unknown" is the fastest-growing category reported for enrolled students in United States colleges and universities, with more than 1 million students so reported to the federal government in the most recent year. http://www.acenet.edu/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Programs_and_Services&TEMPLATE=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm&CONTENTID=42703 http://www.acenet.edu/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Programs_and_S... The federal regulations on the subject http://www.ed.gov/legislation/FedRegister/other/2007-4/101907c.html http://www.ed.gov/legislation/FedRegister/other/2007-4/10190... require all colleges to ask, but no students to tell, which of the federally defined race or ethnicity categories http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/fedreg_1997standards http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/fedreg_1997standards they belong to. A growing number of students decline to answer the questions, which are clearly marked as optional on all college application forms. Harvard http://members.ucan-network.org/harvard http://members.ucan-network.org/harvard reports 12 percent of its enrolled undergraduates as "race/ethnicity unknown," and several other selective colleges have higher percentages of students reported as unknown race or ethnicity. Several state university systems, by state law, may not consider student race or ethnicity at all as part of the admission process. The definitive online FAQ on the issue of race and ethnicity self-identification in college admission in the United States http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/1228264-race-college-admission-faq-discussion-9-a.html http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/12282... links out to other relevant laws and official definitions and news stories, and gives links to reported enrollment figures for a wide variety of colleges. After edit: A comment at the same comment level as this comment appears to be referring to a college's claimed rationale when it says: I don't understand why they require ethnic proportions to stay close to population averages. They don't. Indeed, it is strictly illegal to have admission quotas by race, since the Bakke decision decades ago. If you look at the actual enrollment figures, linked to from this comment, you will see that that is not what happens in practice either. Another comment mentioned an applicant's view that he should not "lie about his race." This view motivates my children NOT marking anything on the forms, because the form questions are optional for applicants, and because my children think it is a lie to describe themselves as belonging to any narrower category than humankind. (From an old-fashioned American point of view, my children could be described as "biracial," but we prefer the term "human" and accept the term "postracial.") I'm a baby boomer, which is another way of saying that I'm a good bit older than most people who post on Hacker News. I distinctly remember the day that President John F. Kennedy was assassinated--the most memorable day of early childhood for many people in my generation--and I remember the "long hot summer" and other events of the 1960s civil rights movement. One early memory I have is of a second grade classmate (I still remember his name, which alas is just common enough that it is hard to Google him up) who moved back to Minnesota with his northern "white" parents after spending his early years in Alabama. He told me frightening stories about Ku Klux Klan violence to black people (the polite term in those days was "Negroes"), including killing babies, and I was very upset to hear about that kind of terrorism happening in the United States. He made me aware of a society in which people didn't all treat one another with decency and human compassion, unlike the only kind of society I was initially aware of from growing up where I did. So I followed subsequent news about the civil rights movement, including the activities of Martin Luther King, Jr. up to his assassination, with great interest. It happens that I had a fifth-grade teacher, a typically pale, tall, and blonde Norwegian-American, who was a civil rights activist and who spent her summers in the south as a freedom rider. She used to tell our class about how she had to modify her car (by removing the dome light and adding a locking gas cap) so that Klan snipers couldn't shoot her as she opened her car door at night or put foreign substances into her gas tank. She has been a civil rights activist all her life, and when I Googled her a few years ago and regained acquaintance with her, I was not at all surprised to find that she is a member of the civil rights commission of the town where I grew up. One day in fifth grade we had a guest speaker in our class, a young man who was then studying at St. Olaf College through the A Better Chance (ABC) affirmative action program. (To me, the term "affirmative action" still means active recruitment of underrepresented minority students, as it did in those days, and I have always thought that such programs are a very good idea, as some people have family connections to selective colleges, but many other people don't.) During that school year (1968-1969), there was a current controversy in the United States about whether the term "Negro" or "Afro-American" or "black" was most polite. So a girl in my class asked our visitor, "What do you want to be called, 'black' or 'Afro-American'?" His answer was, "I'd rather be called Henry." Henry's answer to my classmate's innocent question really got me thinking. Why can't individual human beings have the right to be treated as one more member of the general human race?

cyrus_ 15y ago

Serious question: Is there any reason not to just lie about your ethnicity? Why not put "black" or "native american" on your app to really up your chances? I mean, I'm sure the school would reject you if they knew you were lying about it, but there really isn't any way for them to tell, is there?

andrewflnr 15y ago
They'll know when you show up for class. At best, that seems like a bad start for the year, if anyone from admissions happens to match your name and face.
- forensic 15y ago
  This isn't true. Lots of people don't look their race for one thing
  - sirclueless 15y ago
    Not to mention how politically incorrect it would be to try to call someone out on it: "Hey, aren't you Louis Smith? You said you were black on the application, but you don't look black at all!" I can't imagine it happening.
    - tokenadult 15y ago
      Not to mention how politically incorrect it would be to try to call someone out on it: "Hey, aren't you Louis Smith? You said you were black on the application, but you don't look black at all!" I can't imagine it happening. I saw it happen, back at my law school in the 1980s. (I have no comment about how generally this might happen today.) The classmate of mine who was called out about his "race" self-identification had a dad who almost anyone in the United States would identify as "black" (who definitely had African ancestry, along with European ancestry) and a mom whose historically traceable ancestry was all European. He (the student) himself looked "white," so much so that he could pass as my brother. According to a report in our university's daily newspaper, after his presence in the Black Student Association (to which new students who had indicated that they were black were automatically invited by the law school) became noted, when he filled out his application forms, he checked the boxes for both "white" and "black." (This was before "choose one or more" was the standard language next to race categories on admission forms.) He stayed in law school, and he graduated, and he still practices law. But the other members of the Black Student Association ostracized him, even though he shared many aspects of the black experience in his daily life, and would have legally been classified as black in any southern state during segregation. (Our state, Minnesota, has never had de jure "race" segregation nor has it ever had a law against "interracial" marriage.)

jklp 15y ago

> "Not to really generalize, but a lot of Asians, they have perfect SATs, perfect GPAs, ... so it's hard to let them all in," Olmstead says. I didn't know there was a quota on how many Asian students a college could accept. And besides, doesn't a college want the best students in their college, regardless of ethnicity?

localhost3000 15y ago
'best student' != 'best score/gpa'
- gujk 15y ago
  Thank you. It is insane how many people think college admissions is the official scoreboard oof high school, and not something to do with choosing students who are well matched to the college.
  - fatjokes 15y ago
    It's not insane. It's simply objective. How do you define "best match"? The gut feeling of the admissions officer? You need an objective measure.

temphn 15y ago

According to PBS, Race is an Illusion: http://www.pbs.org/race/000_General/000_00-Home.htm http://www.pbs.org/race/000_General/000_00-Home.htm Jared Diamond concurs: http://www.learntoquestion.com/resources/database/archives/001377.html http://www.learntoquestion.com/resources/database/archives/0... If you believe their arguments, there is no scientific basis for categorizing someone on the basis of race. Appearance is particularly hazardous. Therefore, why can't Asians mark black on the application? Who is to say they are not black if they self-identify as black? According to PBS, Jared Diamond, and many sociology departments, it is impossible to administer a genetic test that distinguishes African Americans from Asians, so self-identification is the only measure that matters. So: why would Asians simply self-identify as white? Why not self-identify as black? If race just a sociocultural construct, well, many Asian Americans certainly are into rap music and cultural markers that are associated with socially constructed category of African American. So why aren't they black?

suivix 15y ago
Even if race were not an illusion, they are separated by only 60,000 years or so of evolution which is barely anything. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recent_African_origin_of_modern_humans http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recent_African_origin_of_mode...
FaceKicker 15y ago
I don't think you even need to get into the "race is an illusion" argument to self-identify as a different race. I remember when I applied, all the applications asked the question with phrasing like "Which race do you consider yourself?" I wondered if there would be any consequence if I answered Black or Hispanic (I'm white). Probably not, I'd think, as they can't prove I don't "consider myself" one of those. Surprising that it doesn't happen more often. Or maybe it does...
narkee 15y ago
I haven't read much on the subject, but the idea that races can't be separated based on genetics is either false, or due to the fact that we don't have enough sensitivity in the measurement. Phenotypically, I can easily identify a black person vs. an asian person, with nearly 100% accuracy. What I'm seeing are phenotypic differences in hair type, skin colour, facial structure, etc. that are all defined by genetics. It's ludicrous to think that I can't sort people into groups based on these apparent differences(and I'm talking broad racial categories, not Ukranians vs. Russians or anything). Ignoring that might be PC, but it's definitely not realistic. Just to be clear, I'm not insinuating anything about intelligence, ability, or whatever. I'm just saying that to deny that there are distinct categories that humans can be classified into is unrealistic. There may be edge cases, but nobody would mistake one of China's 1.6 billion people for an east African.

JohnLBevan 15y ago

If a few Asians don't tick Asian as their ethnicity when asked, that's going to reduce the stats for the number of Asians attending the university, effectively creating a negative feedback loop.

localhost3000 15y ago

I recently went through the b-school admissions process (admitted to several 'elite' schools but, ultimately, decided not to enroll). It was a remarkable experience. Remarkable in that it made me feel completely inadequate and commoditized...and I was a successful applicant! There's an entire industry built upon the panic and stress of young over-achievers who believe their life will be defined by the rank of their school. It's called admissions consulting...and the rates they charge. oh, brother. I feel supremely sorry for any 16-year-old trying to get into a top ranked school right now. As a fairly stable 26-year-old it made me depressed like nothing before. It's a broken process that's been spoiled rotten by the bottom feeders who will tell a kid "you won't get in unless you pay me five grand to help you." (i couldn't afford it...) If you want to see some people really freak out over race and admissions, talk to some Indian B-school hopefuls (note: I am not Indian). They are absolutely bucketed and compete against one another.

mrfairladyz 15y ago
As a 16-year-old who will be applying to these elite schools next year, I can vouch for the things you're saying. The competition is insane, and it puts the prospective applicants through a lot. On the topic of race - It's no unusual occurrence to hear some HYPSM reject at my school (pretty average/ordinary California high school) say "I was rejected because I was Asian/White/Indian/whatever." It really bothers me because these kids never had a shot at those top schools anyway. They were above-average at an ordinary high school. They really had nothing to differentiate them from any other applicant. It was the same "Smart kid with good grades and an SAT score above 2000 who was loosely involved in a club or two." The mentality is, if you get a 2000+ SAT score, then certainly you are some sort of genius who belongs at Harvard. You participated in two clubs?! Wow! You got A's in a few of your AP classes?! Look out Stanford! They think there is some formula to admission, where it's just a stats competition. If you have the right stats, then you're in. But their goal numbers are weak, and they detract from what really matters, and that is being amazing and following your passion (see here - http://mitadmissions.org/blogs/entry/esse-quam-videri http://mitadmissions.org/blogs/entry/esse-quam-videri). And when they get rejected, their first reaction is to blame the black kid. It bothers me because there were other people of their race accepted, and they were accepted because they proved their worth to that college, just like the black kid did. The sore losers complaining don't see that they offered nothing unique or notable to the college that any one of the other thousands of Regular Genius Kids(TM) didn't. All things considered, and race not considered, it's the amazing and truly notable kids who get accepted. Whether white, black, Asian, or whatever, those amazing individuals proved that they themselves could offer something truly valuable to the college, and they were accepted as a result. There are no average Asians at MIT. There are no average black people at MIT. There are no average anyone at MIT, they're all amazing in some way. EDIT: Disclaimer, I'm white.

reader5000 15y ago

If I were Asian, my "college strategy" would be to not apply, since I wouldn't want to be an indentured servant for the next 15-20 years of my life paying off usurious student loan debts to crotchety Western institutions that are currently enjoying bubble tuition rates without offering remotely commensurate value.

gujk 15y ago
The USA has financial aid available to qualified students.
akavi 15y ago
Which is exactly what wouldn't happen should you go to any of the "elite" schools. Harvard, Princeton, Yale, and others go to great lengths to provide adequate financial aid, all of which is provided in the form of grants, not loans. I'm very curious to know what could provide a greater return on investment than spending four years at Harvard for free.

dennisgorelik 15y ago

I wonder how it would work out if Asian applicant self-identifies herself as African-American?

nivertech 15y ago
This guy "won him the title of president of the Black Student Union, despite not being, well, black" [1] [1] http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/160/bill-nguyen-startups http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/160/bill-nguyen-startups
- dennisgorelik 15y ago
  Thanks. So Bill Nguyen proved that it's possible to self-identify yourself under different race. University Admission Committee may not mind such "self race re-branding" practice too, because university ratios of admitted minorities would be improving as well.
  - nivertech 15y ago
    The article talking about high school, not college. Anyway I find, that Americans a little bit confused about things like race, ethnicity and nationality. Asking to fill nationality in official documents is legitimate. Asking for ethnicity is borderline. Asking to fill a race is barbaric.
    - dennisgorelik 15y ago
      I guess universities are barbaric then.
    - Duff 15y ago
      Have you ever dealt with an academic bureaucracy? Barbarism is a good description!

tle9 15y ago

This is inherently true. Unless you're at a very white dominated school ie Notre Dame where it helps to be a minority.

TheCowboy 15y ago

I think race acts as more of a red herring when it comes to this matter. This entire thread just sounds like privileged or talented people(nothing wrong with being either) fighting over admittance to elite universities. After all, people qualified to get into Yale, and this is a large number of applicants, will still get into a very good university. Maybe the problem is that going to an elite school matters too much for arbitrary social reasons. We've all heard and read about how hiring at places, such as elite financial institutions, will simply discard any application from a person who didn't go to an elite university. No one wants to lose out on opportunity. Why can't elite universities increase enrollment to increase the number of opportunities? They have the endowments for it. I'm not aware of any Ivy struggling to pay its bills. If society thinks that people who attend these schools are a better value, then wouldn't it be of benefit to try to expand capacity? It seems like an artificially created scarcity. Do top schools feel their brand is diminished if they start accepting 2k students vs 1.5k?

greiskul 15y ago
Because their brand CAN be diminished if they start accepting more students. More students need more professors, and it might be hard fighting over who gets to hire the best professors. It might also change the student community. I go to a university that is considered prestigious in my country, and what I like the most about it is how it's so easy to find incredibly smart people on the campus, with which you can have great intellectual discussions. If there were more people, it could be harder to find who these great people are. It's a Brazilian public university, which means it's free, and while recently it was created a quota for black and public school students, the majority of students is accepted in a completely color, name, cultural blind manner.
- TheCowboy 15y ago
  The university system has created a surplus of people with phds who are qualified and intellectually capable of being university professors. There are a lot of good articles about how the job market for those wanting to become professors is terrible.
estevez 15y ago

deleted 15y ago

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chegra84 15y ago

By any chance, is this a honey pot post? Flag.

pilom 15y ago

"a member of HAPA, the Half-Asian People's Association" I was under the impression that Hapa was a Hawaiian word for "a person of mixed race." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hapa http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hapa When did the Asians at Harvard decide to steal that one?

wallflower 15y ago

My friend (Asian wife) hopes that his son might get into MIT. His son is not a superstar but has done quite well in math competitions. His son was a pretty good baseball player until they had to decide between Math competitions and sports. I always tell him that his son has to become more interesting - less one-dimension Math/Science stud - like Cal Newport talks about on his blog. And that some schools for MIT could be looking for a few good baseball players. The interesting thing is that the cutthroat high school his son is enrolled at - the AP weed-out courses, the hardest ones are the humanities. Courses like Modern European History. > For these students, extracurricular activities play a different role than for their peers. They don’t use activities to signal their qualities, they use them instead to transform themselves into more interesting people. In other words, what’s important about an activity is not its impressiveness, but its impact on your personality. http://calnewport.com/blog/2010/02/18/want-to-get-into-harvard-spend-more-time-staring-at-the-clouds-rethinking-the-role-of-extracurricular-activities-in-college-admissions/ http://calnewport.com/blog/2010/02/18/want-to-get-into-harva...

wyclif 15y ago

True story: my wife is Asian (from the Philippines). She's done with school, but some of her friends are not. When they ask me for advice on this point, I tell them to check "Hispanic" instead of "Asian." Most Filipino ancestry is a combination of Chinese, Spanish, and Malay, but since the Philippines was colonised by Spain in c.16, it usually works like a charm in differentiating them from the mass of students with Korean, Chinese, and Japanese ancestry.

code_duck 15y ago

If you're half Asian and half European, why is checking 'White' considered hiding half your identity? That only makes sense in the background of US racial views, where Barack Obama is known as Black due to 50% of his heritage. So, if you're not 'pure white', you're not 'white', according to society. I feel it is worrisome that such an old style racist line of thought is ingrained into our culture in a way that few question.

estevez 15y ago

Stories like this irk me, because they overlook the larger injustice of continuing to think about elite schools as meritocratic institutions, when they are plainly not. At Harvard, for example, the bottom half of the income distribution makes up 6.5% of students.[1] When we consider the most selective schools in aggregate, we see that nearly three-quarters of incoming freshmen at those schools are drawn from the top quartile of incomes.[2] The illusion of merit that graduation from these schools imparts leads to a false sense of mastery amongst those who've been able to scale the pyramid of achievement, a self-deception that has had pretty profound consequences for the country since, oh I don't know, say 2008 or so. [1]: http://chronicle.com/article/Pell-Grant-Recipients-Are/126892/ http://chronicle.com/article/Pell-Grant-Recipients-Are/12689... [2]: http://books.google.com/books?id=4JyQus8r9JYC&pg=PA150&lpg=PA150&dq=harvard+yale+princeton+top+income+quartile&source=bl&ots=YYC8OrzhZF&sig=Lxidsb9ab3gw0p8rnNGwrjFlb3E&hl=en&ei=4_TaTteCDYfWiAKI0sS-CQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=harvard%20yale%20princeton%20top%20income%20quartile&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=4JyQus8r9JYC&pg=PA150&#...

jwingy 15y ago
According to this study (http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/27/sat-scores-and-family-income/ http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/27/sat-scores-and-...), there's a clear correlation between students from high income backgrounds having higher scores versus students from lower income backgrounds having lower scores as well.
- estevez 15y ago
  I suggest this piece [1] by David Leonhart. As he points out in the final paragraph: [...] all else equal, a low-income applicant was no more likely to get in than a high-income applicant with the same SAT score. [1]: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/25/business/economy/25leonhardt.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/25/business/economy/25leonhar...
- forensic 15y ago
  The idea that test scores are "meritocratic" is itself a myth. Wealthy people score higher on tests for very simple socioeconomic reasons that are not related to any innate merit but rather to the advantages conferred by an aristocratic upbringing. Attendance at elite schools and the myth of the "meritocratic test score" is just the most recent form of upper class hegemony. It's a fiction created to justify hereditary rule. The far majority of wealth, power, and status is obtained through heredity and nepotism. The "meritocratic test score" myth is there to hide this simple fact.

Sukotto 15y ago

When asked for your race, answer "mongrel" http://yarchive.net/risks/mongrel.html http://yarchive.net/risks/mongrel.html Quoting from the anecdote: All of my known forebears came from Europe, mostly from Southern Germany with a few from England, Ireland, and Scotland. A glance in the mirror, however, indicated that there was Middle Eastern blood in my veins. I have a semitic nose and skin that tans so easily that I am often darker than many people who pass for black. Did I inherit this from a Hebrew, an Arab, a Gypsy or perhaps one of the Turks who periodically pillaged Central Europe? Maybe it was from a Blackfoot Indian that an imaginative aunt thinks was in our family tree. I will probably never know. As an arrogant young computer scientist, I believed that if there is any decision that you can't figure out how to program, the question is wrong. I couldn't figure out how to program racial classification, so I concluded that there isn't such a thing. I subsequently reviewed some scientific literature that confirmed this belief. "Race" is, at best, a fuzzy concept about typical physical properties of certain populations. At worst, of course, it is used to justify more contemptible behavior than any concept other than religion. In answer to the race question on the security form, I decided to put "mongrel." This seemed like an appropriate answer to a meaningless question.

markvp 15y ago

I went to a high school in NYC with an Asian plurality, and it was pretty well known among the students and the counselors that being Asian was not something that would help you get into college. In any case, there's a suit 'Fisher v University of Texas at Austin' which experts think will be heading to the Supreme Court sometime in 2012, and may have a good chance of bringing education a little closer to the meritocracy it should be: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/16/sunday-review/college-diversity-nears-its-last-stand.html http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/16/sunday-review/college-dive...

sirclueless 15y ago

This is what I would like to see: Two comparative histograms of SAT scores for Asian and non-Asian applicants to Ivy League schools. One for all applicants, and the other for those accepted. Here is my suspicion (or what I would like to hear): Asian students are significantly higher-scoring, in both histograms. Such a result would go a long way towards vindicating the college admission process, and suggest that universities don't explicitly judge those who mark "Asian" by a different standard but rather choose to largely discount SAT scores (and by proxy academic performance). Similar studies were used to discredit claims that engineering and science departments were practicing gender discrimination against women. Does anyone have a reference to a study on race in undergraduate admissions that takes this approach?

rdl 15y ago

I'm curious how carefully these things are checked. Like many white people with ancestors from Appalachia, I'm sure I'm at least slightly Native American. Is it fair to mark Native American (and white?) on these forms?

tokenadult 15y ago
As is mentioned in the official federal definitions, mentioned in the online FAQ linked to from a comment above, http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3309338 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3309338 the federal definition of "American Indian or Alaska Native" is "A person having origins in any of the original peoples of North and South America (including Central America), and who maintains tribal affiliation or community attachment." In other words, if you don't have community attachment to an Indian tribe, or formal legally recognized tribal membership, you are not a Native American or Alaska Native.

reader5000 15y ago

I think the basic thing is, if you are of race X, you would prefer it if race X continues getting admission in reasonable numbers to the status-branding factories of America (i.e. colleges). That preference is thoroughly, whole-cloth racist, but I think it is valid. If it happens to be the case that race Y dominates admissions (or race Z can't seem to get a leg up), whether that domination be through genetic or cultural factors (or both), it is arguably racist to handicap admissions by appeal to soft factors. But consider: Let's imagine (e.g.) global warming has destroyed US agriculture so all the gringos in the US have to migrate south to Mexico. The University of Mexico is (say) the premier university of Mexico, the Harvard all the best Mexican students want to attend. Historically, whites outperform latinos on admissions numbers (SAT and GPA). Would it make sense then for the University of Mexico to cease accepting latino-Mexicans (or substantially decrease their admissions rates) in favor of the new white-Mexicans with higher numbers? Would that be the fairest thing to do? Or would the U of M admissions board say things like "yeah whites have good numbers but they all kind of look the same to us. All from the same middle class families, all played tennis and hockey in high school, all want to be business/psych majors and join greek fraternities. We look at other things than just numbers." I'm not entirely sure it's unfair to handicap asians, or assist blacks, if we've essentially industrialized the production of status-signalling - fixing the recommended amount of prestige and job offers a person should receive for the rest of his life at age 18 - and have to determine some means of doling it out.

beastman82 15y ago

That article is in desperate need of citations.

itmag 15y ago

Is it possible to be admitted to a top-tier US university as a non-US resident (I'm Swedish)? How does that work with SATs and stuff then? Also, is it possible to be admitted if one is outside the typical age range of applicants (ie 18-19)? I just don't know how these things work for you in the US, so I had to ask :)

cpher 15y ago

So, if a private school shouldn't/can't discriminate on the basis of race, should they be able to discriminate on the basis of religious affiliation/belief? I ask this as a graduate of a Christian liberal arts college, which discriminates on the basis of religious beliefs. It's not entirely on topic but I think the "logic" still applies. Or does it?