5 ms·

Of course wireless networks are subject to jamming attacks. Of course, therefore, a security system that uses those wireless networks will be subject to the sam

Of course wireless networks are subject to jamming attacks. Of course, therefore, a security system that uses those wireless networks will be subject to the same attacks. Why is anyone surprised? Aside from the fact it took this long for an exploit to hit the news.

ShakataGaNai 4y ago
Anyone who is tech savvy enough to be on Hacker News isn't going to be shocked. However MOST people don't understand the technology. As the resident IT person in my family/friends, I've been asked about this sort of thing on a regular basis. Everytime I talk them through the convenience vs security. Without fail people are surprised by the idea of being easy to "jam" wifi. Even some of the tech savvy don't realize how cheap it is to build a deauther. I can get ESP8266 units for less than $2 each and load up pre-made deauth firmware from Github in a matter of minutes.
- kortex 4y ago
  Heck, I've seen some projects involving trying to diy short range digital comms accidentally turn into a jammer which will mess with anything in the 2.4Ghz band. All it takes is a VCO and the wrong (or right, depending on purpose) circuit attached to it. Deauth is a little more finesse, but barely.
  - hellojesus 4y ago
    I have a USB to vga device that harmonics into the GPS spectrum, allowing me to broadcast false GPS chords. It amazes me that most people overlook the ease at which their frontline defense can be thwarted.
- dehrmann 4y ago
  > Without fail people are surprised by the idea of being easy to "jam" wifi. Don't they at least remember all the times it cuts out on them?
  - Gigachad 4y ago
    No, I can’t even remember the last time my home wifi stopped working.
- autoexec 4y ago
  > However MOST people don't understand the technology. More than that, people are being intentionally mislead by Amazon who is well aware of the massive vulnerabilities their products have, but still advertise their devices as being secure and able to protect the customer. They even have police going door to door shilling for them. It's perfectly reasonable for people to believe tech companies and Officer Friendly when they both say a ring camera is a smart purchase and they should buy one. They should feel betrayed when they find out they bought a device that's trivial to bypass and the best Amazon has to offer by way of a solution is that they waste their time calling customer support who can do nothing for them.
dylan604 4y ago
Not to fear though, as it is against FCC regulations to interfere with a radio signal. We all know criminals fear the FCC more than any other law enforcement agency. Also, this whole interference issues is like a big DUH!!! There's a label on the devices (or at least the docs provided) with the FCC logo that states that the device much accept that interference or however the labels are worded. I don't have anything within arms reach with one of those labels.
- theonemind 4y ago
  They probably should fear the FCC. They can send you to prison. https://www.fcc.gov/sites/default/files/public_enforcement_overview.pdf https://www.fcc.gov/sites/default/files/public_enforcement_o... Looks like a year, but prison is prison.
  - londons_explore 4y ago
    Have they actually sent anyone to prison recently though?
    - dylan604 4y ago
      Naw, they're too busy mediating Starlink and Dish bickering, or trying to convince people 5G isn't going to give you cancer and crash planes, or reversing net neutrality.
  - matheusmoreira 4y ago
    If someone uses a short range jammer to disrupt local wireless networks, is the FCC even going to know? Ever?
  - 6stringmerc 4y ago
    That’s why laser jamming is more practical for auto enthusiasts with speed limit issues - lasers are regulated by the FDA not the FCC
brigade 4y ago
Criminals (and cops and reporters...) aren't the most tech-savvy, so it's useful to know when possible attacks are actually used. Like, it took over a year (and it going viral on TikTok) for thieves outside Milwaukee to catch on that late model Kia/Hyundais are as easy to steal as 90's Hondas. That said, I'm not convinced the criminals in this case jammed anything; she said hours were missing and car thieves aren't sticking around that long, and balaclavas are still cheap. And the techie "of course you need to hardwire everything" is extraordinarily unhelpful. Actually being useful would be spreading knowledge that deauth attacks can be prevented with 802.11w (even other posters here don't seem to know that!), and pointing out what supports that and how to enable it. Or promoting cameras with enough local storage to mitigate being disconnected for a half hour or so, which is also useful for power outages...
- walterbell 4y ago
  > deauth attacks can be prevented with 802.11w 802.11w is part of WPA3 in WiFi-6, which can still be attacked, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33089451 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33089451
- londons_explore 4y ago
  WiFi is trivial to jam... Just run a microwave with a pencil wedged in the door hinge and nobody will be using 2.4g WiFi anywhere in the same block. Deauth attacks are a distraction.
  - brigade 4y ago
    Thank both of you for proving my point that you all will irrationally argue "any even marginally imperfect security is completely and utterly pointless" in literally any context. Worrying about criminals jamming wifi is the distraction, because criminals definitely carry around microwaves and portable kilowatt power sources, or implement novel DoS attacks, all just to temporarily disconnect cameras that if it's competent, cached all the video locally anyway. Why not worry about criminals cutting mains power? That'd kill most wired cameras even harder than battery-powered wireless ones.
fulafel 4y ago
Easy jammability is not a necessary property of wireless networks. There's lots of research about it and military applications.
omegalulw 4y ago
I wonder how well WPA3 fares here.

ShakataGaNai 4y ago

Anyone who is tech savvy enough to be on Hacker News isn't going to be shocked. However MOST people don't understand the technology. As the resident IT person in my family/friends, I've been asked about this sort of thing on a regular basis. Everytime I talk them through the convenience vs security. Without fail people are surprised by the idea of being easy to "jam" wifi. Even some of the tech savvy don't realize how cheap it is to build a deauther. I can get ESP8266 units for less than $2 each and load up pre-made deauth firmware from Github in a matter of minutes.

kortex 4y ago
Heck, I've seen some projects involving trying to diy short range digital comms accidentally turn into a jammer which will mess with anything in the 2.4Ghz band. All it takes is a VCO and the wrong (or right, depending on purpose) circuit attached to it. Deauth is a little more finesse, but barely.
- hellojesus 4y ago
  I have a USB to vga device that harmonics into the GPS spectrum, allowing me to broadcast false GPS chords. It amazes me that most people overlook the ease at which their frontline defense can be thwarted.
dehrmann 4y ago
> Without fail people are surprised by the idea of being easy to "jam" wifi. Don't they at least remember all the times it cuts out on them?
- Gigachad 4y ago
  No, I can’t even remember the last time my home wifi stopped working.
autoexec 4y ago
> However MOST people don't understand the technology. More than that, people are being intentionally mislead by Amazon who is well aware of the massive vulnerabilities their products have, but still advertise their devices as being secure and able to protect the customer. They even have police going door to door shilling for them. It's perfectly reasonable for people to believe tech companies and Officer Friendly when they both say a ring camera is a smart purchase and they should buy one. They should feel betrayed when they find out they bought a device that's trivial to bypass and the best Amazon has to offer by way of a solution is that they waste their time calling customer support who can do nothing for them.

dylan604 4y ago

Not to fear though, as it is against FCC regulations to interfere with a radio signal. We all know criminals fear the FCC more than any other law enforcement agency. Also, this whole interference issues is like a big DUH!!! There's a label on the devices (or at least the docs provided) with the FCC logo that states that the device much accept that interference or however the labels are worded. I don't have anything within arms reach with one of those labels.

theonemind 4y ago
They probably should fear the FCC. They can send you to prison. https://www.fcc.gov/sites/default/files/public_enforcement_overview.pdf https://www.fcc.gov/sites/default/files/public_enforcement_o... Looks like a year, but prison is prison.
- londons_explore 4y ago
  Have they actually sent anyone to prison recently though?
  - dylan604 4y ago
    Naw, they're too busy mediating Starlink and Dish bickering, or trying to convince people 5G isn't going to give you cancer and crash planes, or reversing net neutrality.
- matheusmoreira 4y ago
  If someone uses a short range jammer to disrupt local wireless networks, is the FCC even going to know? Ever?
- 6stringmerc 4y ago
  That’s why laser jamming is more practical for auto enthusiasts with speed limit issues - lasers are regulated by the FDA not the FCC

brigade 4y ago

Criminals (and cops and reporters...) aren't the most tech-savvy, so it's useful to know when possible attacks are actually used. Like, it took over a year (and it going viral on TikTok) for thieves outside Milwaukee to catch on that late model Kia/Hyundais are as easy to steal as 90's Hondas. That said, I'm not convinced the criminals in this case jammed anything; she said hours were missing and car thieves aren't sticking around that long, and balaclavas are still cheap. And the techie "of course you need to hardwire everything" is extraordinarily unhelpful. Actually being useful would be spreading knowledge that deauth attacks can be prevented with 802.11w (even other posters here don't seem to know that!), and pointing out what supports that and how to enable it. Or promoting cameras with enough local storage to mitigate being disconnected for a half hour or so, which is also useful for power outages...

walterbell 4y ago
> deauth attacks can be prevented with 802.11w 802.11w is part of WPA3 in WiFi-6, which can still be attacked, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33089451 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33089451
londons_explore 4y ago
WiFi is trivial to jam... Just run a microwave with a pencil wedged in the door hinge and nobody will be using 2.4g WiFi anywhere in the same block. Deauth attacks are a distraction.
- brigade 4y ago
  Thank both of you for proving my point that you all will irrationally argue "any even marginally imperfect security is completely and utterly pointless" in literally any context. Worrying about criminals jamming wifi is the distraction, because criminals definitely carry around microwaves and portable kilowatt power sources, or implement novel DoS attacks, all just to temporarily disconnect cameras that if it's competent, cached all the video locally anyway. Why not worry about criminals cutting mains power? That'd kill most wired cameras even harder than battery-powered wireless ones.

fulafel 4y ago

Easy jammability is not a necessary property of wireless networks. There's lots of research about it and military applications.

omegalulw 4y ago

I wonder how well WPA3 fares here.