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He actually seems to be taking the traditional Russian long view. They didn't get that big through clever land deals, after all. One curiosity through this wh

He actually seems to be taking the traditional Russian long view. They didn't get that big through clever land deals, after all. One curiosity through this whole thing that seems to have gotten memory-holed: Boris Johnson, playing the role of Henry Kissinger, killing an early peace deal and keeping this mess going. Putin might have been looking just to keep NATO out of Ukraine. If that was the case (maybe not, see above) then this extended war might have been avoided.

rsuelzer 4y ago
This was never about Ukraine, any settlement would be met by further escalation when he felt ready. Probably when the west was more fractured, insular, nationalistic and our democratic institutions more fragile.
bnralt 4y ago
> Boris Johnson, playing the role of Henry Kissinger, killing an early peace deal and keeping this mess going. Putin might have been looking just to keep NATO out of Ukraine. This is odd revisionism. You can look back at articles that took place during the negotiations in late March and early April and see exactly what the Russians were saying then. The big sticking point was that Russia wanted Ukraine to agree to giving control of the Donbas and Crimea to Russia[1] before any meeting between Zelensky and Putin, while Ukraine wanted to discuss those two during a direct meeting between the two presidents. You can see the Russian foreign minister[2] as well as the head Russian negotiator[3] saying that Ukrainian proposals were unacceptable because they didn't agree to give up territory before Zelensky and Putin even met. A few days later, Putin called the peace talks a dead end because Ukrainians wouldn't cede territory and complained about crimes in occupied territories[4]. [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-nazi-demand-for-ukraine-dropped-in-ceasefire-talks-2022-3 https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-nazi-demand-for-ukrai... [2] https://web.archive.org/web/20220407172040/https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-says-ukraine-presented-unacceptable-draft-peace-deal-2022-04-07/ https://web.archive.org/web/20220407172040/https://www.reute... [3] https://web.archive.org/web/20220403075439/https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-says-peace-talks-not-ready-leaders-meeting-chief-negotiator-2022-04-03/ https://web.archive.org/web/20220403075439/https://www.reute... [4] https://web.archive.org/web/20220414093437/https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-flies-into-russian-far-east-ukraine-talks-with-belarusian-leader-2022-04-12/ https://web.archive.org/web/20220414093437/https://www.reute...

rsuelzer 4y ago

This was never about Ukraine, any settlement would be met by further escalation when he felt ready. Probably when the west was more fractured, insular, nationalistic and our democratic institutions more fragile.

bnralt 4y ago

> Boris Johnson, playing the role of Henry Kissinger, killing an early peace deal and keeping this mess going. Putin might have been looking just to keep NATO out of Ukraine. This is odd revisionism. You can look back at articles that took place during the negotiations in late March and early April and see exactly what the Russians were saying then. The big sticking point was that Russia wanted Ukraine to agree to giving control of the Donbas and Crimea to Russia[1] before any meeting between Zelensky and Putin, while Ukraine wanted to discuss those two during a direct meeting between the two presidents. You can see the Russian foreign minister[2] as well as the head Russian negotiator[3] saying that Ukrainian proposals were unacceptable because they didn't agree to give up territory before Zelensky and Putin even met. A few days later, Putin called the peace talks a dead end because Ukrainians wouldn't cede territory and complained about crimes in occupied territories[4]. [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-nazi-demand-for-ukraine-dropped-in-ceasefire-talks-2022-3 https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-nazi-demand-for-ukrai... [2] https://web.archive.org/web/20220407172040/https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-says-ukraine-presented-unacceptable-draft-peace-deal-2022-04-07/ https://web.archive.org/web/20220407172040/https://www.reute... [3] https://web.archive.org/web/20220403075439/https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-says-peace-talks-not-ready-leaders-meeting-chief-negotiator-2022-04-03/ https://web.archive.org/web/20220403075439/https://www.reute... [4] https://web.archive.org/web/20220414093437/https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-flies-into-russian-far-east-ukraine-talks-with-belarusian-leader-2022-04-12/ https://web.archive.org/web/20220414093437/https://www.reute...