8 ms·

The traditional interpretation of the French Revolution is that of a class struggle (and communists, also Marx, later used it as argumentation). Yet, it also ha

The traditional interpretation of the French Revolution is that of a class struggle (and communists, also Marx, later used it as argumentation). Yet, it also had anarchist, socialist and feminist roots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Commune https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Commune In regard to Nazis, most Nazis were Christian and the church was integrated in the state. I assume Hitler didn't like the catholic church much, yet he would have never been able to act against Christians as he did against Jews. Hitler declared himself "Not a Catholic, but a German Christian." (Also seeing that most of his officers and people working with him were christian, it's highly questionable). Compared to Mussolini (and Genitle), Hitler saw atheists as "stupid and animal like" ... "The fascist movement similarly rejected Christian Western roots" Seeing that Hitler read and focused a lot on old German occultism, hypnotism, and astrology, you could say he was going back to the roots. > to destroy the Christian values of universal human dignity and the responsibility to care for the poor and needy. Universal Human Dignity is not a particular Christian value or Christian in nature. It seems much more grounded in the French Revolution (anarchists, socialists, feminists, and communists). I also don't see much of universal human dignity in the history of the West (whatever is included in it). Inquisition, Crusades, World War I ? ;) "the responsibility to care for the poor and needy" The Nazi party came to power because of too many poor and needy ... Can you define "Western tradition"? What is part of it and what is not? I have a hard time understanding this concept. If I check Wikipedia on this, it seems Australia and Russia are part of Western Culture ... The concept is fuzzy and confusing. "When you achieve a local maximum as great as we have ..." I have trouble with wording like that and the exceptionalism that it implies. If Human rights are universal, we should not try to take possession of them based on our view on history. I was not part of any of the struggles of the people before me and cannot be proud of the fact that I was luckily born on a specific GPS coordinate that makes me German (part of the "West"). https://theglobalobservatory.org/2018/10/are-human-rights-a-western-concept/ https://theglobalobservatory.org/2018/10/are-human-rights-a-...

PathOfEclipse 4y ago
I appreciate your response, but we will have to continue to disagree on just about everything. From the Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2019/04/20/hitler-hated-judaism-he-loathed-christianity-too/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2019/04/20/hitler-hat... "Hitler hated Judaism. But he loathed Christianity, too. Hitler’s mother was a devout Catholic. His father considered religion a scam." Also: “In Hitler’s eyes Christianity was a religion fit only for slaves,” wrote Alan Bullock “Hitler, A Study in Tyranny,” a seminal biography. “Its teaching, he declared, was a rebellion against the natural law of selection by struggle of the fittest.” Also: "By 1942, Hitler vowed, according to Bullock, to “root out and destroy the influence of the Christian Churches,” describing them as “the evil that is gnawing our vitals.”" Hitler may have made public statements about being Christian, but those were probably more along the lines of him putting on a show to convince his fellow countrymen to follow him. He was as anti-Christian as they come, as was his Nazi movement. We will also have to disagree about the roots of universal human dignity. Here are some readings I might suggest: https://www.amazon.com/Dominion-Making-Western-Tom-Holland/dp/1408706954 https://www.amazon.com/Dominion-Making-Western-Tom-Holland/d... https://www.amazon.com/Victory-Reason-Christianity-Freedom-Capitalism/dp/1400062284 https://www.amazon.com/Victory-Reason-Christianity-Freedom-C... https://www.amazon.com/Christian-Activism-Chinese-Societies-Christianity/dp/1611463238 https://www.amazon.com/Christian-Activism-Chinese-Societies-... And here is a good short video with snippets of interviews with the historian Tom Holland: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SW_XOor7lRI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SW_XOor7lRI When I refer to "Western tradition", I am referring to the Judeo-Christian tradition which singularly gave rise to, among other things, the scientific revolution, the enlightenment, and the constitution of the United States, which itself is heavily based on English law. You should have no trouble with the exceptionalism implied by my statement. We live in the most prosperous and privileged time in recorded human history, and, it's not even a remotely close contest compared to any other time period! It's sad there are so many intent on tearing it down, thinking they'll build something better on top of the ruins, all while failing to truly understand and appreciate what we have and how we got here.
- kgarten 4y ago
  Yes, I know, the Washington Post article ... This is conjecture from Alan Bullock, several historians disagree with him ... The wikipedia article is much more accurate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitle... It's interesting how much you know about the internal intentions of a human without knowing his language and I guess without ever have read a speech or book by him. I studied the 3rd Reich ever year in high school, I read Hitlers speeches and am familiar with also my personal family history. I could talk with a lot of eye witnesses even people who met Hitler. I can tell you that this is conjecture. Oh I feared you use Judeo-Christian ... there is no Judeo-Christian tradition in Europe. Jews were outcast and regarded as second class citizens or as none at all ... (here also Hitler is more continuing a tradition than breaking it, building on antisemitic sentiments to execute the Holocaust). It's a term that was coined in the US and mostly established during the 2nd world war. https://www.encyclopedia.com/religion/legal-and-political-magazines/judeo-christian-tradition https://www.encyclopedia.com/religion/legal-and-political-ma... In Germany, we usually refer to the Abrahamic religions and traditions and beliefs. Again, same as with "Western" it's interesting what you are excluding with using that term of Judeo-Christian (also it's very contested under Jewish friends of mine ... they find it offensive). History and progress is complex. If somebody claims sth. gave "singularly ... rise to" ... "among other things, the scientific revolution, the enlightenment, and the constitution of the United States." I'm highly skeptical, especially if only "Western." In terms of scientific progress, I recommend https://www.amazon.com/Alchemy-Us-Humans-Transformed-Another/dp/0262043807 https://www.amazon.com/Alchemy-Us-Humans-Transformed-Another...
  - PathOfEclipse 4y ago
    Just because you don't like a term doesn't mean the term isn't describing something real. And, just because a term was invented to describe something in the past, doesn't mean the term isn't describing something real. And, finally, every term both includes and excludes, else it has no meaning! Your linked encyclopedia article looks very biased and misinformed. For one, Wikipedia states the term has been used since the 1800s. I also personally don't think "Judeo-Christian" excludes Muslims, who, to my knowledge, inherit this tradition by believing in parts of both the Old and New Testaments: From https://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Portal:_Islam_and_the_Judeo-Christian_Tradition https://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Portal:_Islam_and_the_Judeo-C... "The Qur'an makes constant reference to the stories of the Judeao-Christian tradition. The references are familiar and sometimes in passing, and assume a great deal of familiarity on the part of the listeners. The audienceof the Qur'an was clearly one well-acquainted with the stories themselves and the Qur'an itself says that it is a "reminder" (73:19) of the message which has come before. The stories referenced are not only from the Bible, but come from a wide variety of literary traditions within ancient near east Christianity and Judaism such as the Alexander Romances, saints lives, and the Talmud." Historians disagree about everything, and everything is up for conjecture because the man isn't alive today, and we can't read his mind. That said, here is some more evidence: From: https://www.independent.com/2011/04/29/hitler-hated-christians/ https://www.independent.com/2011/04/29/hitler-hated-christia... Martin Bormann, one of Hitler’s closest and most influential aides, declared that National Socialism and Christianity are irreconcilable, and Hitler himself said that Christianity was a religion of fools and “old women.” Hitler declared that “The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity…. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.” And from: https://thenewamerican.com/hitler-and-christianity/ https://thenewamerican.com/hitler-and-christianity/ According to Baldur von Schirach, the Nazi leader of the German youth corps that would later be known as the Hitler Youth, “the destruction of Christianity was explicitly recognized as a purpose of the National Socialist movement” from the beginning, though “considerations of expedience made it impossible” for the movement to adopt this radical stance officially until it had consolidated power. Really, this is just common sense. Hitler was many things, but a clumsy politician was not one of them. He knew that until he had “consolidated power,” he would have to erect a façade for a Christian people and the Church; this is probably why virtually all his pro-Christian statements were rendered publicly and before he had closed his iron fist around the German neck.

PathOfEclipse 4y ago

I appreciate your response, but we will have to continue to disagree on just about everything. From the Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2019/04/20/hitler-hated-judaism-he-loathed-christianity-too/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2019/04/20/hitler-hat... "Hitler hated Judaism. But he loathed Christianity, too. Hitler’s mother was a devout Catholic. His father considered religion a scam." Also: “In Hitler’s eyes Christianity was a religion fit only for slaves,” wrote Alan Bullock “Hitler, A Study in Tyranny,” a seminal biography. “Its teaching, he declared, was a rebellion against the natural law of selection by struggle of the fittest.” Also: "By 1942, Hitler vowed, according to Bullock, to “root out and destroy the influence of the Christian Churches,” describing them as “the evil that is gnawing our vitals.”" Hitler may have made public statements about being Christian, but those were probably more along the lines of him putting on a show to convince his fellow countrymen to follow him. He was as anti-Christian as they come, as was his Nazi movement. We will also have to disagree about the roots of universal human dignity. Here are some readings I might suggest: https://www.amazon.com/Dominion-Making-Western-Tom-Holland/dp/1408706954 https://www.amazon.com/Dominion-Making-Western-Tom-Holland/d... https://www.amazon.com/Victory-Reason-Christianity-Freedom-Capitalism/dp/1400062284 https://www.amazon.com/Victory-Reason-Christianity-Freedom-C... https://www.amazon.com/Christian-Activism-Chinese-Societies-Christianity/dp/1611463238 https://www.amazon.com/Christian-Activism-Chinese-Societies-... And here is a good short video with snippets of interviews with the historian Tom Holland: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SW_XOor7lRI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SW_XOor7lRI When I refer to "Western tradition", I am referring to the Judeo-Christian tradition which singularly gave rise to, among other things, the scientific revolution, the enlightenment, and the constitution of the United States, which itself is heavily based on English law. You should have no trouble with the exceptionalism implied by my statement. We live in the most prosperous and privileged time in recorded human history, and, it's not even a remotely close contest compared to any other time period! It's sad there are so many intent on tearing it down, thinking they'll build something better on top of the ruins, all while failing to truly understand and appreciate what we have and how we got here.

kgarten 4y ago
Yes, I know, the Washington Post article ... This is conjecture from Alan Bullock, several historians disagree with him ... The wikipedia article is much more accurate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitle... It's interesting how much you know about the internal intentions of a human without knowing his language and I guess without ever have read a speech or book by him. I studied the 3rd Reich ever year in high school, I read Hitlers speeches and am familiar with also my personal family history. I could talk with a lot of eye witnesses even people who met Hitler. I can tell you that this is conjecture. Oh I feared you use Judeo-Christian ... there is no Judeo-Christian tradition in Europe. Jews were outcast and regarded as second class citizens or as none at all ... (here also Hitler is more continuing a tradition than breaking it, building on antisemitic sentiments to execute the Holocaust). It's a term that was coined in the US and mostly established during the 2nd world war. https://www.encyclopedia.com/religion/legal-and-political-magazines/judeo-christian-tradition https://www.encyclopedia.com/religion/legal-and-political-ma... In Germany, we usually refer to the Abrahamic religions and traditions and beliefs. Again, same as with "Western" it's interesting what you are excluding with using that term of Judeo-Christian (also it's very contested under Jewish friends of mine ... they find it offensive). History and progress is complex. If somebody claims sth. gave "singularly ... rise to" ... "among other things, the scientific revolution, the enlightenment, and the constitution of the United States." I'm highly skeptical, especially if only "Western." In terms of scientific progress, I recommend https://www.amazon.com/Alchemy-Us-Humans-Transformed-Another/dp/0262043807 https://www.amazon.com/Alchemy-Us-Humans-Transformed-Another...
- PathOfEclipse 4y ago
  Just because you don't like a term doesn't mean the term isn't describing something real. And, just because a term was invented to describe something in the past, doesn't mean the term isn't describing something real. And, finally, every term both includes and excludes, else it has no meaning! Your linked encyclopedia article looks very biased and misinformed. For one, Wikipedia states the term has been used since the 1800s. I also personally don't think "Judeo-Christian" excludes Muslims, who, to my knowledge, inherit this tradition by believing in parts of both the Old and New Testaments: From https://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Portal:_Islam_and_the_Judeo-Christian_Tradition https://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Portal:_Islam_and_the_Judeo-C... "The Qur'an makes constant reference to the stories of the Judeao-Christian tradition. The references are familiar and sometimes in passing, and assume a great deal of familiarity on the part of the listeners. The audienceof the Qur'an was clearly one well-acquainted with the stories themselves and the Qur'an itself says that it is a "reminder" (73:19) of the message which has come before. The stories referenced are not only from the Bible, but come from a wide variety of literary traditions within ancient near east Christianity and Judaism such as the Alexander Romances, saints lives, and the Talmud." Historians disagree about everything, and everything is up for conjecture because the man isn't alive today, and we can't read his mind. That said, here is some more evidence: From: https://www.independent.com/2011/04/29/hitler-hated-christians/ https://www.independent.com/2011/04/29/hitler-hated-christia... Martin Bormann, one of Hitler’s closest and most influential aides, declared that National Socialism and Christianity are irreconcilable, and Hitler himself said that Christianity was a religion of fools and “old women.” Hitler declared that “The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity…. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.” And from: https://thenewamerican.com/hitler-and-christianity/ https://thenewamerican.com/hitler-and-christianity/ According to Baldur von Schirach, the Nazi leader of the German youth corps that would later be known as the Hitler Youth, “the destruction of Christianity was explicitly recognized as a purpose of the National Socialist movement” from the beginning, though “considerations of expedience made it impossible” for the movement to adopt this radical stance officially until it had consolidated power. Really, this is just common sense. Hitler was many things, but a clumsy politician was not one of them. He knew that until he had “consolidated power,” he would have to erect a façade for a Christian people and the Church; this is probably why virtually all his pro-Christian statements were rendered publicly and before he had closed his iron fist around the German neck.