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Governments often have a tendency to think of stockpiles as indefinite items without a lifetime. But everything has a lifetime, as any good engineer would know.

Governments often have a tendency to think of stockpiles as indefinite items without a lifetime. But everything has a lifetime, as any good engineer would know. "Let's stockpile nuclear emergency meds" is a good opportunity to forget about expirations and, 50 years from now, say "we're covered because in 2022 we stockpiled them and nothing happened since". Thankfully, as GP points out, this appears not to be the case... this time. But it did happen with Covid (and not just to the US! Many governments were guilty of this thinking)

comradesmith 4y ago
Yes but that’s not a good argument against buying them now, instead it’s an argument in favour of setting up a replenishment programme for some fraction of the reserve every year after some initial delay.
- scrollaway 4y ago
  I'm not reading anyone arguing against buying anything now?
_visgean 4y ago
> But it did happen with Covid what do you mean? We did not have stockpiles of drugs because the drugs were not known and it took quite a bit of research to figure out what works and what does not.
- scrollaway 4y ago
  It happened with PPE (which has expiration dates).
- smegger001 4y ago
  Masks and Respirators. We had stockpiles of expired equipment.
  - b1ue64 4y ago
    Mask don't have expiry dates unless you use them
    - scrollaway 4y ago
      They do. N95 masks have a 10 year shelf life. You can argue about the usefulness of that shelf life (it's been done to death), but it's there, and when the pandemic hit loads of governments were faced with expired masks. https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/869238O/3m-health-care-particulate-respirator-and-surgical-masks-storage-conditions-and-shelf-life-faq.pdf https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/869238O/3m-health-care-p...
      - jefftk 4y ago
        Among other issues, the elastic wears out over time even if they're in storage.
    - smegger001 4y ago
      yeah they do. the elastic bands and adhesives used to make them will break down.
- Maursault 4y ago
  It wasn't the drugs that were the problem, but, instead, timely boneheadedness: May 2018 The Trump Administration disbands the White House pandemic response team. July 2019 The Centers for Disease Control (CDC) epidemiologist embedded in China’s disease control agency left the post, and the Trump Administration eliminated the role. Oct. 2019 “Currently, there are insufficient funding sources designated for the federal government to use in response to a severe influenza pandemic.” Jan. 22, 2020 “We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China. It’s going to be just fine.” Please don't start. It happened, we learned from it, we're moving on...
  - TMWNN 4y ago
    >May 2018 The Trump Administration disbands the White House pandemic response team. Ah yes, yet another person who a) uses Snopes to "fact check" and b) looked at the Snopes piece's headline and nothing else. One would think reading only that, or the Twitter thread (!) the piece is based on, that to save money (or because the Trump administration hated science, or something) the entire "US Pandemic Response Team" agency was eliminated and everyone in a large DC office building was fired. Actually reading the contemporary NBC News https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/tom-bossert-trump-s-homeland-security-adviser-resign-n864321 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/tom-bossert-t... and Washington Post https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2018/05/10/top-white-house-official-in-charge-of-pandemic-response-exits-abruptly/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2018/0... articles the Snopes piece cites in the body, they seem to have been a handful of people in one team in the National Security Council hierarchy, that the new National Security Advisor reassigned to related agencies, as part of a desire to have his own hierarchical structure. Ziemer resigned because he wanted to keep his team the way it was. COVID19 was not a surprise; that is, it was known to exist in China some time before the first cases appeared in the US. It is not unreasonable for a government to assemble a team to respond to something like a pandemic as needed, as opposed to having people dedicated solely to the purpose and nothing else. And that's exactly what the US did, implementing the ban on non-American travelers who'd been to China in late January 2020, among other things. You may or may not agree with this. But please don't claim that this is somehow prima facie proof of the Trump administration's malfeasance/evilness. PS - No, Trump did not "cut the CDC budget" either. https://apnews.com/d36d6c4de29f4d04beda3db00cb46104 https://apnews.com/d36d6c4de29f4d04beda3db00cb46104
Spooky23 4y ago
Emergency management people think about stuff like this and plan for it. Not sure what the COVID reference is, but vaccination storage and management was initially very complex (requiring ultra cold temperatures and special handling) and given the insanity of the media environment, it was essential that vaccine be available for people who showed up, which meant wasting unused vaccines.

comradesmith 4y ago

Yes but that’s not a good argument against buying them now, instead it’s an argument in favour of setting up a replenishment programme for some fraction of the reserve every year after some initial delay.

scrollaway 4y ago
I'm not reading anyone arguing against buying anything now?

_visgean 4y ago

> But it did happen with Covid what do you mean? We did not have stockpiles of drugs because the drugs were not known and it took quite a bit of research to figure out what works and what does not.

scrollaway 4y ago
It happened with PPE (which has expiration dates).
smegger001 4y ago
Masks and Respirators. We had stockpiles of expired equipment.
- b1ue64 4y ago
  Mask don't have expiry dates unless you use them
  - scrollaway 4y ago
    They do. N95 masks have a 10 year shelf life. You can argue about the usefulness of that shelf life (it's been done to death), but it's there, and when the pandemic hit loads of governments were faced with expired masks. https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/869238O/3m-health-care-particulate-respirator-and-surgical-masks-storage-conditions-and-shelf-life-faq.pdf https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/869238O/3m-health-care-p...
    - jefftk 4y ago
      Among other issues, the elastic wears out over time even if they're in storage.
  - smegger001 4y ago
    yeah they do. the elastic bands and adhesives used to make them will break down.
Maursault 4y ago
It wasn't the drugs that were the problem, but, instead, timely boneheadedness: May 2018 The Trump Administration disbands the White House pandemic response team. July 2019 The Centers for Disease Control (CDC) epidemiologist embedded in China’s disease control agency left the post, and the Trump Administration eliminated the role. Oct. 2019 “Currently, there are insufficient funding sources designated for the federal government to use in response to a severe influenza pandemic.” Jan. 22, 2020 “We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China. It’s going to be just fine.” Please don't start. It happened, we learned from it, we're moving on...
- TMWNN 4y ago
  >May 2018 The Trump Administration disbands the White House pandemic response team. Ah yes, yet another person who a) uses Snopes to "fact check" and b) looked at the Snopes piece's headline and nothing else. One would think reading only that, or the Twitter thread (!) the piece is based on, that to save money (or because the Trump administration hated science, or something) the entire "US Pandemic Response Team" agency was eliminated and everyone in a large DC office building was fired. Actually reading the contemporary NBC News https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/tom-bossert-trump-s-homeland-security-adviser-resign-n864321 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/tom-bossert-t... and Washington Post https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2018/05/10/top-white-house-official-in-charge-of-pandemic-response-exits-abruptly/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2018/0... articles the Snopes piece cites in the body, they seem to have been a handful of people in one team in the National Security Council hierarchy, that the new National Security Advisor reassigned to related agencies, as part of a desire to have his own hierarchical structure. Ziemer resigned because he wanted to keep his team the way it was. COVID19 was not a surprise; that is, it was known to exist in China some time before the first cases appeared in the US. It is not unreasonable for a government to assemble a team to respond to something like a pandemic as needed, as opposed to having people dedicated solely to the purpose and nothing else. And that's exactly what the US did, implementing the ban on non-American travelers who'd been to China in late January 2020, among other things. You may or may not agree with this. But please don't claim that this is somehow prima facie proof of the Trump administration's malfeasance/evilness. PS - No, Trump did not "cut the CDC budget" either. https://apnews.com/d36d6c4de29f4d04beda3db00cb46104 https://apnews.com/d36d6c4de29f4d04beda3db00cb46104

Spooky23 4y ago

Emergency management people think about stuff like this and plan for it. Not sure what the COVID reference is, but vaccination storage and management was initially very complex (requiring ultra cold temperatures and special handling) and given the insanity of the media environment, it was essential that vaccine be available for people who showed up, which meant wasting unused vaccines.