7 ms·

> If COVID taught us anything, the government is going to let these drugs expire useless, incinerate them, refuse to replenish them, and import loads of fakes w

> If COVID taught us anything, the government is going to let these drugs expire useless, incinerate them, refuse to replenish them, and import loads of fakes when an actual crisis hits. That’s a very weird take on this. So what should the government do in your opinion? Launch some nukes preemptively just so people could say “oh, at least we didn’t waste those anti-radiation medicines! we caused nuclear conflict, but who cares, drugs didn’t expire”? Considering that the adversary is shifting their strategic bombers, sent their biggest sub with nuclear torpedoes into the sea, and the nuclear train is on the move towards Ukraine, this sounds like a good idea, no?

scrollaway 4y ago
Governments often have a tendency to think of stockpiles as indefinite items without a lifetime. But everything has a lifetime, as any good engineer would know. "Let's stockpile nuclear emergency meds" is a good opportunity to forget about expirations and, 50 years from now, say "we're covered because in 2022 we stockpiled them and nothing happened since". Thankfully, as GP points out, this appears not to be the case... this time. But it did happen with Covid (and not just to the US! Many governments were guilty of this thinking)
- comradesmith 4y ago
  Yes but that’s not a good argument against buying them now, instead it’s an argument in favour of setting up a replenishment programme for some fraction of the reserve every year after some initial delay.
  - scrollaway 4y ago
    I'm not reading anyone arguing against buying anything now?
- _visgean 4y ago
  > But it did happen with Covid what do you mean? We did not have stockpiles of drugs because the drugs were not known and it took quite a bit of research to figure out what works and what does not.
  - scrollaway 4y ago
    It happened with PPE (which has expiration dates).
  - smegger001 4y ago
    Masks and Respirators. We had stockpiles of expired equipment.
    - b1ue64 4y ago
      Mask don't have expiry dates unless you use them
      - scrollaway 4y ago
        They do. N95 masks have a 10 year shelf life. You can argue about the usefulness of that shelf life (it's been done to death), but it's there, and when the pandemic hit loads of governments were faced with expired masks. https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/869238O/3m-health-care-particulate-respirator-and-surgical-masks-storage-conditions-and-shelf-life-faq.pdf https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/869238O/3m-health-care-p...
        jefftk 4y ago
        Among other issues, the elastic wears out over time even if they're in storage.
      - smegger001 4y ago
        yeah they do. the elastic bands and adhesives used to make them will break down.
  - Maursault 4y ago
    It wasn't the drugs that were the problem, but, instead, timely boneheadedness: May 2018 The Trump Administration disbands the White House pandemic response team. July 2019 The Centers for Disease Control (CDC) epidemiologist embedded in China’s disease control agency left the post, and the Trump Administration eliminated the role. Oct. 2019 “Currently, there are insufficient funding sources designated for the federal government to use in response to a severe influenza pandemic.” Jan. 22, 2020 “We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China. It’s going to be just fine.” Please don't start. It happened, we learned from it, we're moving on...
- Spooky23 4y ago
  Emergency management people think about stuff like this and plan for it. Not sure what the COVID reference is, but vaccination storage and management was initially very complex (requiring ultra cold temperatures and special handling) and given the insanity of the media environment, it was essential that vaccine be available for people who showed up, which meant wasting unused vaccines.
dntrkv 4y ago
It's an especially stupid thing to point out when that's not the case here, as OP points out. Like, why even mention it then? There is enough negativity/pessimism around, no reason to add to it.
- rad_gruchalski 4y ago
  I am not trying to be negative. I mean, what’s brewing is not a subject to throw jokes around. It’s a genuine question, considering current geopolitical issues, when is the right time to prepare for a crisis if not now?
  - megablast 4y ago
    Clearly they were not talking to you.
    - rad_gruchalski 4y ago
      In my defense, it was late. Thank you for pointing that out.
  - alex_young 4y ago
    I'm not clear on why you have such a negative take on the response to the pandemic in general. I thought the speed of development and delivery of the mRNA vaccines was nothing short of unprecedented. A lot of things went wrong, but drug development and delivery wasn't one of them IMO.
    - rad_gruchalski 4y ago
      Where did I mention anything related to the pandemic?
      - bretthoerner 4y ago
        To maybe help defuse: it looks to me like dntrkv was actually agreeing with you (and talking about dereg's post), but it seems like you misunderstood, and then alex_young probably misread you as being dereg given your reply. Just my take, obv.
AndrewUnmuted 4y ago
dereg 4y ago
My point is that the political imperative leads politicians on both ends to take on many unfunded liabilities without planning for continuity or completion. I'm hoping that the extended storage for this is well accounted for and immunized against the whims of the next administration.
reducesuffering 4y ago
> and the nuclear train is on the move towards Ukraine This was debunked by the US Gov.
- voakbasda 4y ago
  Good thing the US government does not have an incentive to lie in this case. Oh, wait. Maybe they want to avoid having taxpayers start panicking and rioting in the streets. We are in the fog of war. The ground truth of such matters will be elusive until that fog lifts. In the meantime, no one should believe the propaganda spouted by their government without extraordinary proof.
  - reducesuffering 4y ago
    Ok, more evidence then: https://mobile.twitter.com/ArmsControlWonk/status/1577093488956489728 https://mobile.twitter.com/ArmsControlWonk/status/1577093488...

scrollaway 4y ago

Governments often have a tendency to think of stockpiles as indefinite items without a lifetime. But everything has a lifetime, as any good engineer would know. "Let's stockpile nuclear emergency meds" is a good opportunity to forget about expirations and, 50 years from now, say "we're covered because in 2022 we stockpiled them and nothing happened since". Thankfully, as GP points out, this appears not to be the case... this time. But it did happen with Covid (and not just to the US! Many governments were guilty of this thinking)

comradesmith 4y ago
Yes but that’s not a good argument against buying them now, instead it’s an argument in favour of setting up a replenishment programme for some fraction of the reserve every year after some initial delay.
- scrollaway 4y ago
  I'm not reading anyone arguing against buying anything now?
_visgean 4y ago
> But it did happen with Covid what do you mean? We did not have stockpiles of drugs because the drugs were not known and it took quite a bit of research to figure out what works and what does not.
- scrollaway 4y ago
  It happened with PPE (which has expiration dates).
- smegger001 4y ago
  Masks and Respirators. We had stockpiles of expired equipment.
  - b1ue64 4y ago
    Mask don't have expiry dates unless you use them
    - scrollaway 4y ago
      They do. N95 masks have a 10 year shelf life. You can argue about the usefulness of that shelf life (it's been done to death), but it's there, and when the pandemic hit loads of governments were faced with expired masks. https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/869238O/3m-health-care-particulate-respirator-and-surgical-masks-storage-conditions-and-shelf-life-faq.pdf https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/869238O/3m-health-care-p...
      - jefftk 4y ago
        Among other issues, the elastic wears out over time even if they're in storage.
    - smegger001 4y ago
      yeah they do. the elastic bands and adhesives used to make them will break down.
- Maursault 4y ago
  It wasn't the drugs that were the problem, but, instead, timely boneheadedness: May 2018 The Trump Administration disbands the White House pandemic response team. July 2019 The Centers for Disease Control (CDC) epidemiologist embedded in China’s disease control agency left the post, and the Trump Administration eliminated the role. Oct. 2019 “Currently, there are insufficient funding sources designated for the federal government to use in response to a severe influenza pandemic.” Jan. 22, 2020 “We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China. It’s going to be just fine.” Please don't start. It happened, we learned from it, we're moving on...
Spooky23 4y ago
Emergency management people think about stuff like this and plan for it. Not sure what the COVID reference is, but vaccination storage and management was initially very complex (requiring ultra cold temperatures and special handling) and given the insanity of the media environment, it was essential that vaccine be available for people who showed up, which meant wasting unused vaccines.

dntrkv 4y ago

It's an especially stupid thing to point out when that's not the case here, as OP points out. Like, why even mention it then? There is enough negativity/pessimism around, no reason to add to it.

rad_gruchalski 4y ago
I am not trying to be negative. I mean, what’s brewing is not a subject to throw jokes around. It’s a genuine question, considering current geopolitical issues, when is the right time to prepare for a crisis if not now?
- megablast 4y ago
  Clearly they were not talking to you.
  - rad_gruchalski 4y ago
    In my defense, it was late. Thank you for pointing that out.
- alex_young 4y ago
  I'm not clear on why you have such a negative take on the response to the pandemic in general. I thought the speed of development and delivery of the mRNA vaccines was nothing short of unprecedented. A lot of things went wrong, but drug development and delivery wasn't one of them IMO.
  - rad_gruchalski 4y ago
    Where did I mention anything related to the pandemic?
    - bretthoerner 4y ago
      To maybe help defuse: it looks to me like dntrkv was actually agreeing with you (and talking about dereg's post), but it seems like you misunderstood, and then alex_young probably misread you as being dereg given your reply. Just my take, obv.

AndrewUnmuted 4y ago

dereg 4y ago

My point is that the political imperative leads politicians on both ends to take on many unfunded liabilities without planning for continuity or completion. I'm hoping that the extended storage for this is well accounted for and immunized against the whims of the next administration.

reducesuffering 4y ago

> and the nuclear train is on the move towards Ukraine This was debunked by the US Gov.

voakbasda 4y ago
Good thing the US government does not have an incentive to lie in this case. Oh, wait. Maybe they want to avoid having taxpayers start panicking and rioting in the streets. We are in the fog of war. The ground truth of such matters will be elusive until that fog lifts. In the meantime, no one should believe the propaganda spouted by their government without extraordinary proof.
- reducesuffering 4y ago
  Ok, more evidence then: https://mobile.twitter.com/ArmsControlWonk/status/1577093488956489728 https://mobile.twitter.com/ArmsControlWonk/status/1577093488...