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Ok, given the number of people that take Calculus, how many will ever read an ML paper? For that matter, how many even know or care what ML is? This only adds

Ok, given the number of people that take Calculus, how many will ever read an ML paper? For that matter, how many even know or care what ML is? This only adds to my point.

viscanti 4y ago
Economics, Statistics, ML, Engineering all use calculus. You might be able to get by in some areas without it, but it's not as if it's useless. It's also really easy and straightforward. You would create calculus if it didn't exist.
- louhike 4y ago
  I can’t help but feel like there’s far more people who do not need more than really simple calculus than people who do. Should we really disadvantage people by frustrating them with subjects almost useless for them just for the sake of the few who will need it? There could be other things to learn with as much or more interest for them. Calculus can be a good thing but we should stop to make mandatory for a lot of persons and refuse it to reconsider its use.
  - viscanti 4y ago
    Calculus is really simple. The part some people have trouble with is that they're forced to remember all the other math they've learned to that point. Others struggle with it because the concepts are new. There are successful studies teaching 12 year olds calculus, using software that helps them with the computational side (they don't have to remember all their trig rules or how to factor but they need to know when to apply the core ideas). These arguments that people shouldn't learn calculus (or should because they need some rigor) are all wrong. A small number of people should learn to do by hand, all the non-calculus computation they'll run into in calculus. Most people should probably just be taught the main concepts and how to apply them using readily available software that can help them with the calculation part.
itishappy 4y ago
From the general population? Not that many. From this site? I'd wager a significant percentage. Here's maybe a more generally relevant example: Have you heard about this thing called inflation?
- fullsend 4y ago
  I bet even in the HN population the number is still less than 10% for work. Including hobbyists, maybe 15%.
ransom1538 4y ago
"understand any modern ML paper" I believe 7 people read an academic paper on average. (1 of those is a mother).
troupe 4y ago
There are going to be people in the world that are capable of reading things like an ML paper and there are going to be people who are not. Calculus (or other advanced mathematics) is part of what you'll need to understand those papers. If having the ability to read such papers and understand such concepts isn't something you want for yourself then you definitely shouldn't take advanced mathematics courses. However, many people see the ability to understand those types of things to be a useful skill in giving them opportunities in the future.

Ok, given the number of people that take Calculus, how many will ever read an ML paper? For that matter, how many even know or care what ML is? This only adds to my point.

viscanti 4y ago

Economics, Statistics, ML, Engineering all use calculus. You might be able to get by in some areas without it, but it's not as if it's useless. It's also really easy and straightforward. You would create calculus if it didn't exist.

louhike 4y ago
I can’t help but feel like there’s far more people who do not need more than really simple calculus than people who do. Should we really disadvantage people by frustrating them with subjects almost useless for them just for the sake of the few who will need it? There could be other things to learn with as much or more interest for them. Calculus can be a good thing but we should stop to make mandatory for a lot of persons and refuse it to reconsider its use.
- viscanti 4y ago
  Calculus is really simple. The part some people have trouble with is that they're forced to remember all the other math they've learned to that point. Others struggle with it because the concepts are new. There are successful studies teaching 12 year olds calculus, using software that helps them with the computational side (they don't have to remember all their trig rules or how to factor but they need to know when to apply the core ideas). These arguments that people shouldn't learn calculus (or should because they need some rigor) are all wrong. A small number of people should learn to do by hand, all the non-calculus computation they'll run into in calculus. Most people should probably just be taught the main concepts and how to apply them using readily available software that can help them with the calculation part.

itishappy 4y ago

From the general population? Not that many. From this site? I'd wager a significant percentage. Here's maybe a more generally relevant example: Have you heard about this thing called inflation?

fullsend 4y ago
I bet even in the HN population the number is still less than 10% for work. Including hobbyists, maybe 15%.

ransom1538 4y ago

"understand any modern ML paper" I believe 7 people read an academic paper on average. (1 of those is a mother).

troupe 4y ago

There are going to be people in the world that are capable of reading things like an ML paper and there are going to be people who are not. Calculus (or other advanced mathematics) is part of what you'll need to understand those papers. If having the ability to read such papers and understand such concepts isn't something you want for yourself then you definitely shouldn't take advanced mathematics courses. However, many people see the ability to understand those types of things to be a useful skill in giving them opportunities in the future.