4 ms·

Being a TA and discovering that about half the class was engaged in a singular cheating ring (that does not mean the other half is free from cheating) changed m

Being a TA and discovering that about half the class was engaged in a singular cheating ring (that does not mean the other half is free from cheating) changed my perspective as to how cheating should be dealt with. In general I feel that if enough people are doing the "wrong" thing, then punishing most of the population is probably an even worse move. Failing individuals, marking their transcript, or kicking them out of college may seem acceptable when you have the perspective that only individuals cheat. But when you hypothetically punish over half the student body by taking their money and kicking them out...

soperj 4y ago
Then why even have rules about it. You're basically screwing honest people.
lotsofpulp 4y ago
> In general I feel that if enough people are doing the "wrong" thing, then punishing most of the population is probably an even worse move Why?
- threatofrain 4y ago
  I feel that the raison d'etre of morality is in the promotion of healthy relations and prosperous communities, and my policy intuition tells me that punishing over half of a population is probably the wrong move.
  - pclmulqdq 4y ago
    The thing is, it's only half the population now. Once you set the precedent, it won't be half the population any more. You can also just slowly ratchet up the pressure, cutting off the cheating over time.
    - jasonwatkinspdx 4y ago
      This is the same logic as roman decimation, which I think you'll find few people arguing is a great way to run a military today.
mensetmanusman 4y ago
There will always be cheaters when money is involved. The Saudi route of death penalty is probably too high. It’s better to just invest money into anti cheat architecture.
- pclmulqdq 4y ago
  Why not both? Particularly in a game or a sport, where losing access to the competitive scene doesn't really negatively impact your life. Like it or not, there aren't very many robbers in Saudi Arabia - they get their hands cut off.
  - SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
    > Like it or not, there aren't very many robbers in Saudi Arabia - they get their hands cut off. Is this actually the case or it is apocryphal? A quick google tells me that thefts make up 47% of all total reported crimes in Saudia Arabia in 2002 [1]. That seems like the opposite of "aren't very many", especially when compared to Canada, whose number appear to be 28% in 2020 [2]. (Just the numbers I could find - I'm sure there's reporting issues at play here.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Saudi_Arabia#Theft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Saudi_Arabia#Theft [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Canada#Crime_statistics_by_province_and_territory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Canada#Crime_statisti...
    - aliswe 4y ago
      Armed robbery is, to my knowledge, punished with capital punishment. Petty theft or theft of unattended or inadequatly protected goods is not susceptible to cutting of the hand. Etc...
    - pclmulqdq 4y ago
      There's petty theft, but not a lot of robbery. Also, the crime rate in genetal is very low: 0.83 per 100k people in 2019. Compared to 47.7 per 100k in the US. The number is even lower than Denmark, which is well known for having very low crime.
Retric 4y ago
It’s a feedback loop where if there are no penalties for cheating then more people cheat which eventually forces people to cheat just to compete. In a collage setting having a high number of cheaters reduces the value of a degree as people get used to graduates being incompetent. That also hurts non cheaters.
mannerheim 4y ago
Why immediately jump to expulsion? Is it also extreme to just give failing grades to half the class?
waste_monk 4y ago
>But when you hypothetically punish over half the student body by taking their money and kicking them out... The opposite also applies though, if you have a large amount of cheaters in each graduating cohort you devalue the degrees and trash the reputation of the institution. Which hurts all of the students, including the cheaters.

soperj 4y ago

Then why even have rules about it. You're basically screwing honest people.

lotsofpulp 4y ago

> In general I feel that if enough people are doing the "wrong" thing, then punishing most of the population is probably an even worse move Why?

threatofrain 4y ago
I feel that the raison d'etre of morality is in the promotion of healthy relations and prosperous communities, and my policy intuition tells me that punishing over half of a population is probably the wrong move.
- pclmulqdq 4y ago
  The thing is, it's only half the population now. Once you set the precedent, it won't be half the population any more. You can also just slowly ratchet up the pressure, cutting off the cheating over time.
  - jasonwatkinspdx 4y ago
    This is the same logic as roman decimation, which I think you'll find few people arguing is a great way to run a military today.

mensetmanusman 4y ago

There will always be cheaters when money is involved. The Saudi route of death penalty is probably too high. It’s better to just invest money into anti cheat architecture.

pclmulqdq 4y ago
Why not both? Particularly in a game or a sport, where losing access to the competitive scene doesn't really negatively impact your life. Like it or not, there aren't very many robbers in Saudi Arabia - they get their hands cut off.
- SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
  > Like it or not, there aren't very many robbers in Saudi Arabia - they get their hands cut off. Is this actually the case or it is apocryphal? A quick google tells me that thefts make up 47% of all total reported crimes in Saudia Arabia in 2002 [1]. That seems like the opposite of "aren't very many", especially when compared to Canada, whose number appear to be 28% in 2020 [2]. (Just the numbers I could find - I'm sure there's reporting issues at play here.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Saudi_Arabia#Theft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Saudi_Arabia#Theft [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Canada#Crime_statistics_by_province_and_territory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Canada#Crime_statisti...
  - aliswe 4y ago
    Armed robbery is, to my knowledge, punished with capital punishment. Petty theft or theft of unattended or inadequatly protected goods is not susceptible to cutting of the hand. Etc...
  - pclmulqdq 4y ago
    There's petty theft, but not a lot of robbery. Also, the crime rate in genetal is very low: 0.83 per 100k people in 2019. Compared to 47.7 per 100k in the US. The number is even lower than Denmark, which is well known for having very low crime.

Retric 4y ago

It’s a feedback loop where if there are no penalties for cheating then more people cheat which eventually forces people to cheat just to compete. In a collage setting having a high number of cheaters reduces the value of a degree as people get used to graduates being incompetent. That also hurts non cheaters.

mannerheim 4y ago

Why immediately jump to expulsion? Is it also extreme to just give failing grades to half the class?

waste_monk 4y ago

>But when you hypothetically punish over half the student body by taking their money and kicking them out... The opposite also applies though, if you have a large amount of cheaters in each graduating cohort you devalue the degrees and trash the reputation of the institution. Which hurts all of the students, including the cheaters.