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There are a lot of people proposing models of economic development that don't necessarily rely on growth. There's a lot of work done on degrowth and similar mo

There are a lot of people proposing models of economic development that don't necessarily rely on growth. There's a lot of work done on degrowth and similar modes of production. Though I haven't really read too much into it (just getting into this topic recently) a lot of the authors are staunch critics of capitalism so it leads me to believe that there are other systems out there that aren't necessarily capitalists and probably align with socialism much more. Just to give a brief example, think about private ownership of a firm versus worker ownership of it and how it would change the way that firm approaches pollution. In the first it is very easy for the owners to be detached from the pollution they produce as they can simply move to another city without the firm really be affected in any way. Whereas in the second one it wouldn't be possible for workers to move as they would be unable to continue working, so pollution affects them and their families directly in which case there are much stronger incentives for them to cut profits in order to greenify their production. First is a capitalist mode of production, second is a socialist one.

chaostheory 4y ago
Imo co-ops aren’t socialist because it’s not directly controlled by a government. They also already exist and thrive in modern mixed capitalist economies
- jerojero 4y ago
  The government controlling production is not all there is to socialism, at all. Markets are not an exclusive feature of capitalism. In very simple terms, the economy from a leftist perspective can be separated into two areas: distribution and ownership. If you have private ownership and markets then you have the current system; capitalism, if you have state ownership and markets then you have the system that China has. If you have worker ownership (co-ops) and markets then you have a system that actually has a name: market socialism. Of course every economic system has lots of pockets of different things inside it, the economies of walmart and amazon for example work, internally, through planning. So even in our market system we still have pockets of central-planning. But to me at least, the fundamental characteristic of the capitalist system is precisely ownership and the power relationships that come with ownership. So although co-ops exist in capitalism, imo, they're the seeds of new forms to come.
  - chaostheory 4y ago
    China does not currently have a socialist system. Socialist systems do not feature either markets or private ownership. Both markets and private ownership of property are features of capitalism. At best China has a mixed system which primarily features capitalism despite some centralized planning

chaostheory 4y ago

Imo co-ops aren’t socialist because it’s not directly controlled by a government. They also already exist and thrive in modern mixed capitalist economies

jerojero 4y ago
The government controlling production is not all there is to socialism, at all. Markets are not an exclusive feature of capitalism. In very simple terms, the economy from a leftist perspective can be separated into two areas: distribution and ownership. If you have private ownership and markets then you have the current system; capitalism, if you have state ownership and markets then you have the system that China has. If you have worker ownership (co-ops) and markets then you have a system that actually has a name: market socialism. Of course every economic system has lots of pockets of different things inside it, the economies of walmart and amazon for example work, internally, through planning. So even in our market system we still have pockets of central-planning. But to me at least, the fundamental characteristic of the capitalist system is precisely ownership and the power relationships that come with ownership. So although co-ops exist in capitalism, imo, they're the seeds of new forms to come.
- chaostheory 4y ago
  China does not currently have a socialist system. Socialist systems do not feature either markets or private ownership. Both markets and private ownership of property are features of capitalism. At best China has a mixed system which primarily features capitalism despite some centralized planning