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The idea that pushing for peace is Russian propaganda is itself propaganda. I can't believe how effective the war machine still is, even with Iraq and Afghanist

by memish 4y ago

The idea that pushing for peace is Russian propaganda is itself propaganda. I can't believe how effective the war machine still is, even with Iraq and Afghanistan still fresh in memory.

dragontamer 4y ago
https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/lindbergh-to-congress-negotiate-with-hitler https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/lindbergh-to-con... This will go down in history just as Lindbergh's pro-Hitler cowardice did. ----- EDIT: Wow. You completely changed your post wholesale with your edit. Elon Musk isn't "pushing for peace". Elon Musk is pushing for Crimea to be part of Russia. Its the same bit as when Lindbergh publicly stated to not help Poland or France in WW2 in the "name of peace". Its a clear mistake.
- LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
  I'm on Ukraine's side and I don't read that in Elon's tweet. I think he sees it as a compromise that has a chance of being accepted by both parties. He's allowed his opinions. He isn't saying we should give it to them ala Chamberlain.
  - dragontamer 4y ago
    > Khrushchev’s mistake This is a Russian / Kremlin talking point. > He isn't saying we should give it to them ala Chamberlain. No, its worse than that. Elon Musk has adopted the language of the Russian side entirely with that tweet. "Khrushchev’s mistake" is not a Western talking point from any legitimate person. It is exclusively a Russian idea and Russian concept. It'd be as if some Western official started defending Hitler's Lebensraum. There are words and meanings that specific sides use. Elon used an incredibly wrong one yesterday. This isn't "Chamberlain" level of mistake. This is closer to Nazi sympathizer or German-American Bund level kind of talking here if you want a WW2 era example. -------- Look, dude reads Russian propaganda. He's even admitted it at this point openly. https://thehill.com/policy/technology/3667902-musk-said-russian-media-had-lot-of-bulls-but-some-good-points-too-after-ukraine-invasion/ https://thehill.com/policy/technology/3667902-musk-said-russ... The specific phrasing and use of language was enough of a tipoff from yesterday's tweets. But its one of those things: understanding the Russian side is good and fine and all, but the minute you start spreading their propaganda, yeah... people are going to get pissed, ya know?
    - LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
      > "Khrushchev’s mistake". This is a Russian / Kremlin talking point. > It'd be as if some Western official started defending Hitler's Lebensraum If you were proposing a compromise Hitler would accept then saying the phrase "and this provides them the 'Lebensraum' he needs to save face..." would be reasonable. Proposing a compromise that would be an out for Putin does require offering him something that Russia wants. Fwiw many libs were talking off-ramps and such early in the war. For the record, I think they should fight, but I can understand that other people disagree and think a brokered-peace is necessary. > the minute you start spreading their propaganda, yeah... people are going to get pissed, ya know? Well, "using their talking points". But that's fair.
      - dragontamer 4y ago
        Why are we talking about compromises when Ukraine is winning? At a minimum, wait for Ukraine to suffer a setback before asking them to compromise. Ukraine's victories on the battlefield today, and yesterday, only make Musk's words ever more ridiculous. -------- This isn't someone hoping for peace when the Nazis were advancing. This is more akin to someone asking for Peace with Hitler *AFTER* the Normandy landing.
        LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
        The people I mention proposing similar early in the war were also saying it when Ukraine was doing well and Russia was not. All the current problems were already visible. I agree that they shouldn't stop fighting. I simply don't mind that other people feel differently and will even change their minds at times. > This is more akin to someone asking for Peace with Hitler AFTER the Normandy landing Most negotiated peace treaties seem to come after one side realizes it will eventually lose so that's how it would have happened. > At a minimum, wait for Ukraine to suffer a setback before asking them to compromise I'm not a professional diplomat but that does not seem right, if they did want to negotiate it's generally good to do so from a position of apparent strength.
        4y ago
- diimdeep 4y ago
  If anyone cares that much who is right, I suggest going yourself to Crimea and talk to people, and find out what they want, and not what Washington or Kremlin, or Elon Musk wants. But to be honest, the majority of people would not do, and will just continue to throw talking point all over the internet, with projection of perspective under influence of information bubble they live in. What is the point of all this chatter ?

by memish 4y ago

The idea that pushing for peace is Russian propaganda is itself propaganda. I can't believe how effective the war machine still is, even with Iraq and Afghanistan still fresh in memory.

dragontamer 4y ago

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/lindbergh-to-congress-negotiate-with-hitler https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/lindbergh-to-con... This will go down in history just as Lindbergh's pro-Hitler cowardice did. ----- EDIT: Wow. You completely changed your post wholesale with your edit. Elon Musk isn't "pushing for peace". Elon Musk is pushing for Crimea to be part of Russia. Its the same bit as when Lindbergh publicly stated to not help Poland or France in WW2 in the "name of peace". Its a clear mistake.

LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
I'm on Ukraine's side and I don't read that in Elon's tweet. I think he sees it as a compromise that has a chance of being accepted by both parties. He's allowed his opinions. He isn't saying we should give it to them ala Chamberlain.
- dragontamer 4y ago
  > Khrushchev’s mistake This is a Russian / Kremlin talking point. > He isn't saying we should give it to them ala Chamberlain. No, its worse than that. Elon Musk has adopted the language of the Russian side entirely with that tweet. "Khrushchev’s mistake" is not a Western talking point from any legitimate person. It is exclusively a Russian idea and Russian concept. It'd be as if some Western official started defending Hitler's Lebensraum. There are words and meanings that specific sides use. Elon used an incredibly wrong one yesterday. This isn't "Chamberlain" level of mistake. This is closer to Nazi sympathizer or German-American Bund level kind of talking here if you want a WW2 era example. -------- Look, dude reads Russian propaganda. He's even admitted it at this point openly. https://thehill.com/policy/technology/3667902-musk-said-russian-media-had-lot-of-bulls-but-some-good-points-too-after-ukraine-invasion/ https://thehill.com/policy/technology/3667902-musk-said-russ... The specific phrasing and use of language was enough of a tipoff from yesterday's tweets. But its one of those things: understanding the Russian side is good and fine and all, but the minute you start spreading their propaganda, yeah... people are going to get pissed, ya know?
  - LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
    > "Khrushchev’s mistake". This is a Russian / Kremlin talking point. > It'd be as if some Western official started defending Hitler's Lebensraum If you were proposing a compromise Hitler would accept then saying the phrase "and this provides them the 'Lebensraum' he needs to save face..." would be reasonable. Proposing a compromise that would be an out for Putin does require offering him something that Russia wants. Fwiw many libs were talking off-ramps and such early in the war. For the record, I think they should fight, but I can understand that other people disagree and think a brokered-peace is necessary. > the minute you start spreading their propaganda, yeah... people are going to get pissed, ya know? Well, "using their talking points". But that's fair.
    - dragontamer 4y ago
      Why are we talking about compromises when Ukraine is winning? At a minimum, wait for Ukraine to suffer a setback before asking them to compromise. Ukraine's victories on the battlefield today, and yesterday, only make Musk's words ever more ridiculous. -------- This isn't someone hoping for peace when the Nazis were advancing. This is more akin to someone asking for Peace with Hitler *AFTER* the Normandy landing.
      - LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
        The people I mention proposing similar early in the war were also saying it when Ukraine was doing well and Russia was not. All the current problems were already visible. I agree that they shouldn't stop fighting. I simply don't mind that other people feel differently and will even change their minds at times. > This is more akin to someone asking for Peace with Hitler AFTER the Normandy landing Most negotiated peace treaties seem to come after one side realizes it will eventually lose so that's how it would have happened. > At a minimum, wait for Ukraine to suffer a setback before asking them to compromise I'm not a professional diplomat but that does not seem right, if they did want to negotiate it's generally good to do so from a position of apparent strength.
        4y ago
diimdeep 4y ago
If anyone cares that much who is right, I suggest going yourself to Crimea and talk to people, and find out what they want, and not what Washington or Kremlin, or Elon Musk wants. But to be honest, the majority of people would not do, and will just continue to throw talking point all over the internet, with projection of perspective under influence of information bubble they live in. What is the point of all this chatter ?