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Why was he saying that Crimea belongs to Russia? The dude is obviously seeped in pro-Russian propaganda now. I dunno why or how he got to this state, but... El

Why was he saying that Crimea belongs to Russia? The dude is obviously seeped in pro-Russian propaganda now. I dunno why or how he got to this state, but... Elon made this very clear yesterday.

GaylordTuring 4y ago
He’s really not though. His claims aren’t of a moral nature. They’re pragmatical in terms of what could lead to peace and possibly avoid nuclear warfare that more or less could lead to the end of civilization. If Russia wasn’t a threat, I’m 100% sure he would say that the rest of the world should help in reclaiming Crimea. So I don’t think he’s saying that Crimea belongs to Russia at all.
- dragontamer 4y ago
  > His claims aren’t of a moral nature. His claims are 100% Kremlin propaganda. No one else was ever claiming the things he said, aside from Russia. The timing of it was especially egregious, as Ukraine made a *HUGE* advancement over the frontlines this past weekend. Pro-russian propaganda coming in exactly as Russia's front line collapses? What? The timing and speech pattern here (ie: the Kremlin-style argument of "Khrushchev’s mistake") suggests _direct_ Russian influence. No one else was saying things like that. No one speaks like that, not here in USA at least. -------- If Elon Musk said this when Ukraine was losing, then maybe you'd have a point. But Elon Musk decided to say this when Ukraine was __WINNING__ on the battlefield.
memish 4y ago
The idea that pushing for peace is Russian propaganda is itself propaganda. I can't believe how effective the war machine still is, even with Iraq and Afghanistan still fresh in memory.
- dragontamer 4y ago
  https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/lindbergh-to-congress-negotiate-with-hitler https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/lindbergh-to-con... This will go down in history just as Lindbergh's pro-Hitler cowardice did. ----- EDIT: Wow. You completely changed your post wholesale with your edit. Elon Musk isn't "pushing for peace". Elon Musk is pushing for Crimea to be part of Russia. Its the same bit as when Lindbergh publicly stated to not help Poland or France in WW2 in the "name of peace". Its a clear mistake.
  - LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
    I'm on Ukraine's side and I don't read that in Elon's tweet. I think he sees it as a compromise that has a chance of being accepted by both parties. He's allowed his opinions. He isn't saying we should give it to them ala Chamberlain.
    - dragontamer 4y ago
      > Khrushchev’s mistake This is a Russian / Kremlin talking point. > He isn't saying we should give it to them ala Chamberlain. No, its worse than that. Elon Musk has adopted the language of the Russian side entirely with that tweet. "Khrushchev’s mistake" is not a Western talking point from any legitimate person. It is exclusively a Russian idea and Russian concept. It'd be as if some Western official started defending Hitler's Lebensraum. There are words and meanings that specific sides use. Elon used an incredibly wrong one yesterday. This isn't "Chamberlain" level of mistake. This is closer to Nazi sympathizer or German-American Bund level kind of talking here if you want a WW2 era example. -------- Look, dude reads Russian propaganda. He's even admitted it at this point openly. https://thehill.com/policy/technology/3667902-musk-said-russian-media-had-lot-of-bulls-but-some-good-points-too-after-ukraine-invasion/ https://thehill.com/policy/technology/3667902-musk-said-russ... The specific phrasing and use of language was enough of a tipoff from yesterday's tweets. But its one of those things: understanding the Russian side is good and fine and all, but the minute you start spreading their propaganda, yeah... people are going to get pissed, ya know?
      - LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
        > "Khrushchev’s mistake". This is a Russian / Kremlin talking point. > It'd be as if some Western official started defending Hitler's Lebensraum If you were proposing a compromise Hitler would accept then saying the phrase "and this provides them the 'Lebensraum' he needs to save face..." would be reasonable. Proposing a compromise that would be an out for Putin does require offering him something that Russia wants. Fwiw many libs were talking off-ramps and such early in the war. For the record, I think they should fight, but I can understand that other people disagree and think a brokered-peace is necessary. > the minute you start spreading their propaganda, yeah... people are going to get pissed, ya know? Well, "using their talking points". But that's fair.
rendang 4y ago
Crimea has historically belonged to Russia since it was first conquered, and even from the 90s to 2014, Russia had a large military presence there. But Musk was not speaking of who has a moral right to possess it, but of what realistic outcomes are. Do you foresee any path by which Ukraine could get Crimea back other than a coup in Moscow and Putin's replacement by more pliable leadership?
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  > Do you foresee any path by which Ukraine could get Crimea back other than a coup in Moscow and Putin's replacement by more pliable leadership? If Russia continues to fight as effectively as they have been, sure.
concordDance 4y ago
I recommend reading the Wikipedia pages on Crimea and the Crimean referendum. While the referendum might have been illegitimate, it would probably have still been a "join Russia" landslide if conducted properly. Unlike Russia's "referendums" in the past month.

Why was he saying that Crimea belongs to Russia? The dude is obviously seeped in pro-Russian propaganda now. I dunno why or how he got to this state, but... Elon made this very clear yesterday.

GaylordTuring 4y ago

He’s really not though. His claims aren’t of a moral nature. They’re pragmatical in terms of what could lead to peace and possibly avoid nuclear warfare that more or less could lead to the end of civilization. If Russia wasn’t a threat, I’m 100% sure he would say that the rest of the world should help in reclaiming Crimea. So I don’t think he’s saying that Crimea belongs to Russia at all.

dragontamer 4y ago
> His claims aren’t of a moral nature. His claims are 100% Kremlin propaganda. No one else was ever claiming the things he said, aside from Russia. The timing of it was especially egregious, as Ukraine made a *HUGE* advancement over the frontlines this past weekend. Pro-russian propaganda coming in exactly as Russia's front line collapses? What? The timing and speech pattern here (ie: the Kremlin-style argument of "Khrushchev’s mistake") suggests _direct_ Russian influence. No one else was saying things like that. No one speaks like that, not here in USA at least. -------- If Elon Musk said this when Ukraine was losing, then maybe you'd have a point. But Elon Musk decided to say this when Ukraine was __WINNING__ on the battlefield.

memish 4y ago

The idea that pushing for peace is Russian propaganda is itself propaganda. I can't believe how effective the war machine still is, even with Iraq and Afghanistan still fresh in memory.

dragontamer 4y ago
https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/lindbergh-to-congress-negotiate-with-hitler https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/lindbergh-to-con... This will go down in history just as Lindbergh's pro-Hitler cowardice did. ----- EDIT: Wow. You completely changed your post wholesale with your edit. Elon Musk isn't "pushing for peace". Elon Musk is pushing for Crimea to be part of Russia. Its the same bit as when Lindbergh publicly stated to not help Poland or France in WW2 in the "name of peace". Its a clear mistake.
- LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
  I'm on Ukraine's side and I don't read that in Elon's tweet. I think he sees it as a compromise that has a chance of being accepted by both parties. He's allowed his opinions. He isn't saying we should give it to them ala Chamberlain.
  - dragontamer 4y ago
    > Khrushchev’s mistake This is a Russian / Kremlin talking point. > He isn't saying we should give it to them ala Chamberlain. No, its worse than that. Elon Musk has adopted the language of the Russian side entirely with that tweet. "Khrushchev’s mistake" is not a Western talking point from any legitimate person. It is exclusively a Russian idea and Russian concept. It'd be as if some Western official started defending Hitler's Lebensraum. There are words and meanings that specific sides use. Elon used an incredibly wrong one yesterday. This isn't "Chamberlain" level of mistake. This is closer to Nazi sympathizer or German-American Bund level kind of talking here if you want a WW2 era example. -------- Look, dude reads Russian propaganda. He's even admitted it at this point openly. https://thehill.com/policy/technology/3667902-musk-said-russian-media-had-lot-of-bulls-but-some-good-points-too-after-ukraine-invasion/ https://thehill.com/policy/technology/3667902-musk-said-russ... The specific phrasing and use of language was enough of a tipoff from yesterday's tweets. But its one of those things: understanding the Russian side is good and fine and all, but the minute you start spreading their propaganda, yeah... people are going to get pissed, ya know?
    - LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
      > "Khrushchev’s mistake". This is a Russian / Kremlin talking point. > It'd be as if some Western official started defending Hitler's Lebensraum If you were proposing a compromise Hitler would accept then saying the phrase "and this provides them the 'Lebensraum' he needs to save face..." would be reasonable. Proposing a compromise that would be an out for Putin does require offering him something that Russia wants. Fwiw many libs were talking off-ramps and such early in the war. For the record, I think they should fight, but I can understand that other people disagree and think a brokered-peace is necessary. > the minute you start spreading their propaganda, yeah... people are going to get pissed, ya know? Well, "using their talking points". But that's fair.

rendang 4y ago

Crimea has historically belonged to Russia since it was first conquered, and even from the 90s to 2014, Russia had a large military presence there. But Musk was not speaking of who has a moral right to possess it, but of what realistic outcomes are. Do you foresee any path by which Ukraine could get Crimea back other than a coup in Moscow and Putin's replacement by more pliable leadership?

ceejayoz 4y ago
> Do you foresee any path by which Ukraine could get Crimea back other than a coup in Moscow and Putin's replacement by more pliable leadership? If Russia continues to fight as effectively as they have been, sure.

concordDance 4y ago

I recommend reading the Wikipedia pages on Crimea and the Crimean referendum. While the referendum might have been illegitimate, it would probably have still been a "join Russia" landslide if conducted properly. Unlike Russia's "referendums" in the past month.