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The French Revolution was decidedly atheist and leftwing. Most French thinkers of the time looked down on the American revolution and it's Christian values. The

The French Revolution was decidedly atheist and leftwing. Most French thinkers of the time looked down on the American revolution and it's Christian values. The French revolution is more closely related to Marxism than what people generally refer to when they talk about Western roots. Similarly, Germany's Nazi party was highly anti-religious and anti Western values. Hitler said that, after the Jews, the Christians would be next on the chopping block. The Nazi party explicitly sought out to destroy the Christian values of universal human dignity and the responsibility to care for the poor and needy. The fascist movement similarly rejected Christian Western roots. Giovanni Gentile, father of fascism, was decidedly atheist. His influence, H.W.F Hegel, was also a strong influence of Karl Marx. I don't know much about the history of the Spanish inquisition, but most of the examples you gave were of people in the west who were actively rejecting Western tradition. Not coincidentally, they all came up with something far worse and far more evil. When you achieve a local maximum as great as we have, it's virtually impossible to make any revolutionary change that is not catastrophic.

kgarten 4y ago
The traditional interpretation of the French Revolution is that of a class struggle (and communists, also Marx, later used it as argumentation). Yet, it also had anarchist, socialist and feminist roots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Commune https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Commune In regard to Nazis, most Nazis were Christian and the church was integrated in the state. I assume Hitler didn't like the catholic church much, yet he would have never been able to act against Christians as he did against Jews. Hitler declared himself "Not a Catholic, but a German Christian." (Also seeing that most of his officers and people working with him were christian, it's highly questionable). Compared to Mussolini (and Genitle), Hitler saw atheists as "stupid and animal like" ... "The fascist movement similarly rejected Christian Western roots" Seeing that Hitler read and focused a lot on old German occultism, hypnotism, and astrology, you could say he was going back to the roots. > to destroy the Christian values of universal human dignity and the responsibility to care for the poor and needy. Universal Human Dignity is not a particular Christian value or Christian in nature. It seems much more grounded in the French Revolution (anarchists, socialists, feminists, and communists). I also don't see much of universal human dignity in the history of the West (whatever is included in it). Inquisition, Crusades, World War I ? ;) "the responsibility to care for the poor and needy" The Nazi party came to power because of too many poor and needy ... Can you define "Western tradition"? What is part of it and what is not? I have a hard time understanding this concept. If I check Wikipedia on this, it seems Australia and Russia are part of Western Culture ... The concept is fuzzy and confusing. "When you achieve a local maximum as great as we have ..." I have trouble with wording like that and the exceptionalism that it implies. If Human rights are universal, we should not try to take possession of them based on our view on history. I was not part of any of the struggles of the people before me and cannot be proud of the fact that I was luckily born on a specific GPS coordinate that makes me German (part of the "West"). https://theglobalobservatory.org/2018/10/are-human-rights-a-western-concept/ https://theglobalobservatory.org/2018/10/are-human-rights-a-...
- PathOfEclipse 4y ago
  I appreciate your response, but we will have to continue to disagree on just about everything. From the Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2019/04/20/hitler-hated-judaism-he-loathed-christianity-too/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2019/04/20/hitler-hat... "Hitler hated Judaism. But he loathed Christianity, too. Hitler’s mother was a devout Catholic. His father considered religion a scam." Also: “In Hitler’s eyes Christianity was a religion fit only for slaves,” wrote Alan Bullock “Hitler, A Study in Tyranny,” a seminal biography. “Its teaching, he declared, was a rebellion against the natural law of selection by struggle of the fittest.” Also: "By 1942, Hitler vowed, according to Bullock, to “root out and destroy the influence of the Christian Churches,” describing them as “the evil that is gnawing our vitals.”" Hitler may have made public statements about being Christian, but those were probably more along the lines of him putting on a show to convince his fellow countrymen to follow him. He was as anti-Christian as they come, as was his Nazi movement. We will also have to disagree about the roots of universal human dignity. Here are some readings I might suggest: https://www.amazon.com/Dominion-Making-Western-Tom-Holland/dp/1408706954 https://www.amazon.com/Dominion-Making-Western-Tom-Holland/d... https://www.amazon.com/Victory-Reason-Christianity-Freedom-Capitalism/dp/1400062284 https://www.amazon.com/Victory-Reason-Christianity-Freedom-C... https://www.amazon.com/Christian-Activism-Chinese-Societies-Christianity/dp/1611463238 https://www.amazon.com/Christian-Activism-Chinese-Societies-... And here is a good short video with snippets of interviews with the historian Tom Holland: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SW_XOor7lRI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SW_XOor7lRI When I refer to "Western tradition", I am referring to the Judeo-Christian tradition which singularly gave rise to, among other things, the scientific revolution, the enlightenment, and the constitution of the United States, which itself is heavily based on English law. You should have no trouble with the exceptionalism implied by my statement. We live in the most prosperous and privileged time in recorded human history, and, it's not even a remotely close contest compared to any other time period! It's sad there are so many intent on tearing it down, thinking they'll build something better on top of the ruins, all while failing to truly understand and appreciate what we have and how we got here.
  - kgarten 4y ago
    Yes, I know, the Washington Post article ... This is conjecture from Alan Bullock, several historians disagree with him ... The wikipedia article is much more accurate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitle... It's interesting how much you know about the internal intentions of a human without knowing his language and I guess without ever have read a speech or book by him. I studied the 3rd Reich ever year in high school, I read Hitlers speeches and am familiar with also my personal family history. I could talk with a lot of eye witnesses even people who met Hitler. I can tell you that this is conjecture. Oh I feared you use Judeo-Christian ... there is no Judeo-Christian tradition in Europe. Jews were outcast and regarded as second class citizens or as none at all ... (here also Hitler is more continuing a tradition than breaking it, building on antisemitic sentiments to execute the Holocaust). It's a term that was coined in the US and mostly established during the 2nd world war. https://www.encyclopedia.com/religion/legal-and-political-magazines/judeo-christian-tradition https://www.encyclopedia.com/religion/legal-and-political-ma... In Germany, we usually refer to the Abrahamic religions and traditions and beliefs. Again, same as with "Western" it's interesting what you are excluding with using that term of Judeo-Christian (also it's very contested under Jewish friends of mine ... they find it offensive). History and progress is complex. If somebody claims sth. gave "singularly ... rise to" ... "among other things, the scientific revolution, the enlightenment, and the constitution of the United States." I'm highly skeptical, especially if only "Western." In terms of scientific progress, I recommend https://www.amazon.com/Alchemy-Us-Humans-Transformed-Another/dp/0262043807 https://www.amazon.com/Alchemy-Us-Humans-Transformed-Another...

kgarten 4y ago

The traditional interpretation of the French Revolution is that of a class struggle (and communists, also Marx, later used it as argumentation). Yet, it also had anarchist, socialist and feminist roots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Commune https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Commune In regard to Nazis, most Nazis were Christian and the church was integrated in the state. I assume Hitler didn't like the catholic church much, yet he would have never been able to act against Christians as he did against Jews. Hitler declared himself "Not a Catholic, but a German Christian." (Also seeing that most of his officers and people working with him were christian, it's highly questionable). Compared to Mussolini (and Genitle), Hitler saw atheists as "stupid and animal like" ... "The fascist movement similarly rejected Christian Western roots" Seeing that Hitler read and focused a lot on old German occultism, hypnotism, and astrology, you could say he was going back to the roots. > to destroy the Christian values of universal human dignity and the responsibility to care for the poor and needy. Universal Human Dignity is not a particular Christian value or Christian in nature. It seems much more grounded in the French Revolution (anarchists, socialists, feminists, and communists). I also don't see much of universal human dignity in the history of the West (whatever is included in it). Inquisition, Crusades, World War I ? ;) "the responsibility to care for the poor and needy" The Nazi party came to power because of too many poor and needy ... Can you define "Western tradition"? What is part of it and what is not? I have a hard time understanding this concept. If I check Wikipedia on this, it seems Australia and Russia are part of Western Culture ... The concept is fuzzy and confusing. "When you achieve a local maximum as great as we have ..." I have trouble with wording like that and the exceptionalism that it implies. If Human rights are universal, we should not try to take possession of them based on our view on history. I was not part of any of the struggles of the people before me and cannot be proud of the fact that I was luckily born on a specific GPS coordinate that makes me German (part of the "West"). https://theglobalobservatory.org/2018/10/are-human-rights-a-western-concept/ https://theglobalobservatory.org/2018/10/are-human-rights-a-...

PathOfEclipse 4y ago
I appreciate your response, but we will have to continue to disagree on just about everything. From the Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2019/04/20/hitler-hated-judaism-he-loathed-christianity-too/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2019/04/20/hitler-hat... "Hitler hated Judaism. But he loathed Christianity, too. Hitler’s mother was a devout Catholic. His father considered religion a scam." Also: “In Hitler’s eyes Christianity was a religion fit only for slaves,” wrote Alan Bullock “Hitler, A Study in Tyranny,” a seminal biography. “Its teaching, he declared, was a rebellion against the natural law of selection by struggle of the fittest.” Also: "By 1942, Hitler vowed, according to Bullock, to “root out and destroy the influence of the Christian Churches,” describing them as “the evil that is gnawing our vitals.”" Hitler may have made public statements about being Christian, but those were probably more along the lines of him putting on a show to convince his fellow countrymen to follow him. He was as anti-Christian as they come, as was his Nazi movement. We will also have to disagree about the roots of universal human dignity. Here are some readings I might suggest: https://www.amazon.com/Dominion-Making-Western-Tom-Holland/dp/1408706954 https://www.amazon.com/Dominion-Making-Western-Tom-Holland/d... https://www.amazon.com/Victory-Reason-Christianity-Freedom-Capitalism/dp/1400062284 https://www.amazon.com/Victory-Reason-Christianity-Freedom-C... https://www.amazon.com/Christian-Activism-Chinese-Societies-Christianity/dp/1611463238 https://www.amazon.com/Christian-Activism-Chinese-Societies-... And here is a good short video with snippets of interviews with the historian Tom Holland: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SW_XOor7lRI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SW_XOor7lRI When I refer to "Western tradition", I am referring to the Judeo-Christian tradition which singularly gave rise to, among other things, the scientific revolution, the enlightenment, and the constitution of the United States, which itself is heavily based on English law. You should have no trouble with the exceptionalism implied by my statement. We live in the most prosperous and privileged time in recorded human history, and, it's not even a remotely close contest compared to any other time period! It's sad there are so many intent on tearing it down, thinking they'll build something better on top of the ruins, all while failing to truly understand and appreciate what we have and how we got here.
- kgarten 4y ago
  Yes, I know, the Washington Post article ... This is conjecture from Alan Bullock, several historians disagree with him ... The wikipedia article is much more accurate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitle... It's interesting how much you know about the internal intentions of a human without knowing his language and I guess without ever have read a speech or book by him. I studied the 3rd Reich ever year in high school, I read Hitlers speeches and am familiar with also my personal family history. I could talk with a lot of eye witnesses even people who met Hitler. I can tell you that this is conjecture. Oh I feared you use Judeo-Christian ... there is no Judeo-Christian tradition in Europe. Jews were outcast and regarded as second class citizens or as none at all ... (here also Hitler is more continuing a tradition than breaking it, building on antisemitic sentiments to execute the Holocaust). It's a term that was coined in the US and mostly established during the 2nd world war. https://www.encyclopedia.com/religion/legal-and-political-magazines/judeo-christian-tradition https://www.encyclopedia.com/religion/legal-and-political-ma... In Germany, we usually refer to the Abrahamic religions and traditions and beliefs. Again, same as with "Western" it's interesting what you are excluding with using that term of Judeo-Christian (also it's very contested under Jewish friends of mine ... they find it offensive). History and progress is complex. If somebody claims sth. gave "singularly ... rise to" ... "among other things, the scientific revolution, the enlightenment, and the constitution of the United States." I'm highly skeptical, especially if only "Western." In terms of scientific progress, I recommend https://www.amazon.com/Alchemy-Us-Humans-Transformed-Another/dp/0262043807 https://www.amazon.com/Alchemy-Us-Humans-Transformed-Another...