6 ms·

$1500... hell no. VisionFive2[0] w/JH7110, U74x4 @ 1.5GHz, 8GB, 2x GbE, M.2 slot, pi-like gpio header, is less than $100, and thus a much more cost efficient w

by snvzz 4y ago

$1500... hell no. VisionFive2[0] w/JH7110, U74x4 @ 1.5GHz, 8GB, 2x GbE, M.2 slot, pi-like gpio header, is less than $100, and thus a much more cost efficient way to get started with RISC-V. 0. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/starfive/visionfive-2 https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/starfive/visionfive-2

leke 4y ago
Sweet. Imagine if you could put that in a laptop, like you would change motherboards in a PC. Then when the specs get dated, you can switch it out for the next best thing while reusing the original hardware.
- heywire 4y ago
  Like the Framework laptop?
  - snvzz 4y ago
    Not that one. The relevant specs aren't open / prevent third party motherboards, cases, etc. What the world needs is something like ATX or ITX specs, but for laptops. Then anyone can make laptops/cases/boards/psus/otherparts.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- go_elmo 4y ago
  Paired with linux, an ode to joy
- snvzz 4y ago
  That'd be nice, but having a standard form factor for swappable motherboards in laptops is a very separate problem than having cheap boards with RISC-V at all.
- black_puppydog 4y ago
  MNT Reform :)
FullyFunctional 4y ago
UPDATE: Bruce is right. This is more like twice as fast WAS: I signed up for the VisionFive2 myself, but in fairness, the C910 in this laptop is vastly more powerful than SiFive's U76 in the VisionFive2. I don't have the benchmark results handy, but it's on the order of 6X as fast (higher IPC and 66% higher frequency), so it's not really a just comparison. $1500 for a limited run laptop is actually not bad deal. My main hesitation would be what level of support we can be expecting. I have zero interest in proprietary kernels and distros (Many Arm SBCs, like Hard Kernels ODROID line, has this problem and it's a pain to deal with).
- brucehoult 4y ago
  No way it's 6x. The C910 is very similar to an ARM A72. On my own primes benchmark (https://hoult.org/primes.txt https://hoult.org/primes.txt) a Pi 4 at 1.5 GHz takes 11.2 to 12.6 seconds depending which ISA you use (12.1 for 64 bit) while a HiFive Unmatched at 1.5 GHz (same U74 cores as the VisionFive) takes 15.3 seconds. So that's only about 25% on IPC, at least for integer codes in cache. The OoO A72 and C910 will get a bit more than that if there are a lot of cache misses. Add in 2.5/1.5 in MHz and you get about 2x overall. The real fun with RISC-V chips will start with the Intel "Horse Creek" which should be around RK3588 performance (similar to early Core i7?). A Horse Creek chip was shown (non-running) at a conference a couple of weeks ago and will probably be demo'd on a board, running, within the next month or so, and available on the next SiFive dev board maybe Q2 2023.
  - FullyFunctional 4y ago
    It appears I have mistaken C910 with a different core. I haven't found trustworthy benchmarks but T-head's own numbers of 6 DMIPS/MHz and 7 CM/MHz (Dhrystones and CoreMark - which leave much to be desired) compared to 4.27/3.32 DMIPS/MHz (??) and 5.75 CoreMark/MHz seems to agree with you. I have U74 Geekbench results [1] and would like to see the same from C910. With that in mind, I agree that $1500 is a bit much. [1] GB 4.5.0 40 (Crypt 7, Int 49, FP 27), but don't compare to Arm and x86 architectures as unlike them, the RISC-V code is missing a lot of optimization.
parker_mountain 4y ago
This laptop is certainly not a daily driver, and certainly not something you'd buy if you're concerned about lifespan, durability, or support. It's a mobile demonstration that the burgeoning community of risc-v developers can bring along with them to conferences and boardroom tables. It's (relatively) expensive and is functionally a reference board with a battery and screen attached. The price, OEM, and support story is a non-issue for the intended market.
brucehoult 4y ago
VisionFive 2 looks like a great board. I'll know in six weeks or so when my super early bird 4 GB one arrives (and a regular 8 GB in February). However it doesn't have a case, screen, battery, charger, keyboard, trackpad ... $1500 seems entirely reasonable for any laptop that is being made in quantities of 1000s (only 100 before New Year) not millions, regardless of what processor is in it. I've certainly paid far more money for slower laptops in the past ... PowerBook 100, Duo 230, Wallstreet G3/266, 1.0 GHz G4 17" to name a few. In raw CPU performance, it's probably similar to a Core 2 Duo MBP ($1999 for a 2.16 GHz in 2006). But it's got twice the cores, far more RAM, far more "disk", far better GPU. The VisionFive 2 is more like one of the last Pentium IIIs or G4s in performance, per core.
irusensei 4y ago
Do you or anyone happen to know if one of these U74 based boards (including the Star64 from Pine) feature encryption extensions? I tried looking but I couldn't find any mention on the CPU spec sheet. I'm a firm believer that any machine packing personal data must have the capability to encrypt data at acceptable performance levels. And while I'm pretty sure I'm going to raise comments about hardware backdoor and state backed attackers I'm more worried about a thief or burglar having access to my personal data. I have a couple of silent Rockpro64s running in a closet NAS and other applications. While those are not very performant they can handled 200-600MB/s encrypted data throughput and thus saturate a gigabit network.
- andrekandre 4y ago
  i have a couple of these boards that use u74 (hifive unmatched) and afaik they don't have any official encryption extensions (RV64GC + bit manipulation extension) [0] [0] https://www.sifive.com/cores/u74 https://www.sifive.com/cores/u74
  - snvzz 4y ago
    Just note that unmatched U74 aren't the same version of U74 as used in VisionFive2 or Star64. Yes, they change over time. JH7110 uses the 21Q1 version. I believe. They have more extensions and are faster / clock, relative to unmatched.
    - andrekandre 4y ago
      interesting, good info!

by snvzz 4y ago

leke 4y ago

Sweet. Imagine if you could put that in a laptop, like you would change motherboards in a PC. Then when the specs get dated, you can switch it out for the next best thing while reusing the original hardware.

heywire 4y ago
Like the Framework laptop?
- snvzz 4y ago
  Not that one. The relevant specs aren't open / prevent third party motherboards, cases, etc. What the world needs is something like ATX or ITX specs, but for laptops. Then anyone can make laptops/cases/boards/psus/otherparts.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
go_elmo 4y ago
Paired with linux, an ode to joy
snvzz 4y ago
That'd be nice, but having a standard form factor for swappable motherboards in laptops is a very separate problem than having cheap boards with RISC-V at all.
black_puppydog 4y ago
MNT Reform :)

FullyFunctional 4y ago

UPDATE: Bruce is right. This is more like twice as fast WAS: I signed up for the VisionFive2 myself, but in fairness, the C910 in this laptop is vastly more powerful than SiFive's U76 in the VisionFive2. I don't have the benchmark results handy, but it's on the order of 6X as fast (higher IPC and 66% higher frequency), so it's not really a just comparison. $1500 for a limited run laptop is actually not bad deal. My main hesitation would be what level of support we can be expecting. I have zero interest in proprietary kernels and distros (Many Arm SBCs, like Hard Kernels ODROID line, has this problem and it's a pain to deal with).

brucehoult 4y ago
No way it's 6x. The C910 is very similar to an ARM A72. On my own primes benchmark (https://hoult.org/primes.txt https://hoult.org/primes.txt) a Pi 4 at 1.5 GHz takes 11.2 to 12.6 seconds depending which ISA you use (12.1 for 64 bit) while a HiFive Unmatched at 1.5 GHz (same U74 cores as the VisionFive) takes 15.3 seconds. So that's only about 25% on IPC, at least for integer codes in cache. The OoO A72 and C910 will get a bit more than that if there are a lot of cache misses. Add in 2.5/1.5 in MHz and you get about 2x overall. The real fun with RISC-V chips will start with the Intel "Horse Creek" which should be around RK3588 performance (similar to early Core i7?). A Horse Creek chip was shown (non-running) at a conference a couple of weeks ago and will probably be demo'd on a board, running, within the next month or so, and available on the next SiFive dev board maybe Q2 2023.
- FullyFunctional 4y ago
  It appears I have mistaken C910 with a different core. I haven't found trustworthy benchmarks but T-head's own numbers of 6 DMIPS/MHz and 7 CM/MHz (Dhrystones and CoreMark - which leave much to be desired) compared to 4.27/3.32 DMIPS/MHz (??) and 5.75 CoreMark/MHz seems to agree with you. I have U74 Geekbench results [1] and would like to see the same from C910. With that in mind, I agree that $1500 is a bit much. [1] GB 4.5.0 40 (Crypt 7, Int 49, FP 27), but don't compare to Arm and x86 architectures as unlike them, the RISC-V code is missing a lot of optimization.

parker_mountain 4y ago

This laptop is certainly not a daily driver, and certainly not something you'd buy if you're concerned about lifespan, durability, or support. It's a mobile demonstration that the burgeoning community of risc-v developers can bring along with them to conferences and boardroom tables. It's (relatively) expensive and is functionally a reference board with a battery and screen attached. The price, OEM, and support story is a non-issue for the intended market.

brucehoult 4y ago

VisionFive 2 looks like a great board. I'll know in six weeks or so when my super early bird 4 GB one arrives (and a regular 8 GB in February). However it doesn't have a case, screen, battery, charger, keyboard, trackpad ... $1500 seems entirely reasonable for any laptop that is being made in quantities of 1000s (only 100 before New Year) not millions, regardless of what processor is in it. I've certainly paid far more money for slower laptops in the past ... PowerBook 100, Duo 230, Wallstreet G3/266, 1.0 GHz G4 17" to name a few. In raw CPU performance, it's probably similar to a Core 2 Duo MBP ($1999 for a 2.16 GHz in 2006). But it's got twice the cores, far more RAM, far more "disk", far better GPU. The VisionFive 2 is more like one of the last Pentium IIIs or G4s in performance, per core.

irusensei 4y ago

Do you or anyone happen to know if one of these U74 based boards (including the Star64 from Pine) feature encryption extensions? I tried looking but I couldn't find any mention on the CPU spec sheet. I'm a firm believer that any machine packing personal data must have the capability to encrypt data at acceptable performance levels. And while I'm pretty sure I'm going to raise comments about hardware backdoor and state backed attackers I'm more worried about a thief or burglar having access to my personal data. I have a couple of silent Rockpro64s running in a closet NAS and other applications. While those are not very performant they can handled 200-600MB/s encrypted data throughput and thus saturate a gigabit network.

andrekandre 4y ago
i have a couple of these boards that use u74 (hifive unmatched) and afaik they don't have any official encryption extensions (RV64GC + bit manipulation extension) [0] [0] https://www.sifive.com/cores/u74 https://www.sifive.com/cores/u74
- snvzz 4y ago
  Just note that unmatched U74 aren't the same version of U74 as used in VisionFive2 or Star64. Yes, they change over time. JH7110 uses the 21Q1 version. I believe. They have more extensions and are faster / clock, relative to unmatched.
  - andrekandre 4y ago
    interesting, good info!