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The regulations on the use of deadly force in the military are much more stringent and the escalation has to occur in a specific way to justify the use of deadl

The regulations on the use of deadly force in the military are much more stringent and the escalation has to occur in a specific way to justify the use of deadly force, even when a person is being hostile. In an active war zone, the situation is different but it is a war zone (which is the exception, not the norm)- in most situations for most people trained in the military, the standard way to respond is much more reserved in terms of violence than how a lot of police behave domestically (maybe because of the context of preventing an international incident) and there are very strict rules and serious consequences to using a firearm- at least in most places/situations when servicemembers are issued a firearm.

Alupis 4y ago
I think you might be stretching this a lot... try to drive past the front gate at your local military base and we can see just how reserved their use of force is. It is true, however, that the military has strict rules for when lethal force are permitted. I'm not sure how that counters anything said here, since LE also has very strict rules. In hindsight, we can all examine the facts and agree the force used in that situation was unwarranted. But that's the benefit of hindsight. Regardless, we should not focus on how many rounds were fired. We should instead focus on how the wrong decision was made in the first place. That is the point of this entire thread. Do not use round count to indicate anything. It just doesn't indicate anything...
- heavyset_go 4y ago
  I live in a residential area outside of a military base. Civilians accidentally drive into the base's properties and roads all the time. The most that happens is that someone in camo tells you that you're trespassing and to not do it again. Speaking from experience.
- fritztastic 4y ago
  The active threat of someone intentionally driving through a security checkpoint at a military base is an entirely different context. At the point they're crossing the threshold they've already disregarded very obvious markings, signs, obstacles, and undobtedly commands from the sentries on post. There are a number of scenarios for which there are pre planned responses- deviating from those leaves you facing the UCMJ and you're expected to have a very solid justification for using deadly force. Shooting at a vehicle not actively causing harm due to a perceived threat because it looks like the vehicle of someone you reasonably expect to be a threat is... well, that's a stretch. Anecdotally I can say from personal experience there is a lot more restraint being used when guarding people/places relating to national security in place where you can reasonably expect to encounter threats and terrorism than the amount of restraint police here use at civilians domestically.
- vkou 4y ago
  > since LE also has very strict rules. Those strict rules boil down to 'whenever you feel threatened.' If it ever goes to court, the prosecution simply has to prove that the officer in question was thinking the wrong thoughts when he pulled the trigger. Which is, of course, next-to-impossible.
  - Alupis 4y ago
    > the prosecution simply has to prove that the officer in question was thinking the wrong thoughts when he pulled the trigger. Close, but not quite. It's not about what the person was thinking, it's about what a "reasonable person" would think given the same situation. For what it's worth, this is how it works for civilians too. The only burden is to convince a jury a reasonable person would also believe there was a threat given the same situation. Reasonable meaning having the same information as the people involved, ie. without the benefit of hindsight or later discovered facts.
    - vkou 4y ago
      > it's about what a "reasonable person" would think given the same situation. Then why are the seven LAPD officers that shot at the pickup truck during their manhunt for Dorner not serving ten-to-twenty? Because if me and six of my closest friends shot up a random, non-threatening truck with two women in it, there's not a jury in the world who wouldn't convict us, and there's not a prosecutor in the world who would decline to press charges. They are only held to the same standards as the rest of us in theory. In practice, the bar is so low, it's practically nonexistant.
      - Alupis 4y ago
        I think you answered your own question. Because a "reasonable person", given all the same facts the officers had at the moment the shooting occurred, felt the use of force was justified. They did not just get together and shoot up a non-threatening truck with two women in it, as you say. That's what we would say in hindsight, given the facts as-discovered after the incident. The question you should be asking, but didn't, is why the first officer that opened fire is not in trouble for an obvious (in hindsight) wrong call. I would hazard to guess qualified immunity played into that officer's case. Perhaps that is where you should focus.... not on the number of rounds used.

Alupis 4y ago

I think you might be stretching this a lot... try to drive past the front gate at your local military base and we can see just how reserved their use of force is. It is true, however, that the military has strict rules for when lethal force are permitted. I'm not sure how that counters anything said here, since LE also has very strict rules. In hindsight, we can all examine the facts and agree the force used in that situation was unwarranted. But that's the benefit of hindsight. Regardless, we should not focus on how many rounds were fired. We should instead focus on how the wrong decision was made in the first place. That is the point of this entire thread. Do not use round count to indicate anything. It just doesn't indicate anything...

heavyset_go 4y ago
I live in a residential area outside of a military base. Civilians accidentally drive into the base's properties and roads all the time. The most that happens is that someone in camo tells you that you're trespassing and to not do it again. Speaking from experience.
fritztastic 4y ago
The active threat of someone intentionally driving through a security checkpoint at a military base is an entirely different context. At the point they're crossing the threshold they've already disregarded very obvious markings, signs, obstacles, and undobtedly commands from the sentries on post. There are a number of scenarios for which there are pre planned responses- deviating from those leaves you facing the UCMJ and you're expected to have a very solid justification for using deadly force. Shooting at a vehicle not actively causing harm due to a perceived threat because it looks like the vehicle of someone you reasonably expect to be a threat is... well, that's a stretch. Anecdotally I can say from personal experience there is a lot more restraint being used when guarding people/places relating to national security in place where you can reasonably expect to encounter threats and terrorism than the amount of restraint police here use at civilians domestically.
vkou 4y ago
> since LE also has very strict rules. Those strict rules boil down to 'whenever you feel threatened.' If it ever goes to court, the prosecution simply has to prove that the officer in question was thinking the wrong thoughts when he pulled the trigger. Which is, of course, next-to-impossible.
- Alupis 4y ago
  > the prosecution simply has to prove that the officer in question was thinking the wrong thoughts when he pulled the trigger. Close, but not quite. It's not about what the person was thinking, it's about what a "reasonable person" would think given the same situation. For what it's worth, this is how it works for civilians too. The only burden is to convince a jury a reasonable person would also believe there was a threat given the same situation. Reasonable meaning having the same information as the people involved, ie. without the benefit of hindsight or later discovered facts.
  - vkou 4y ago
    > it's about what a "reasonable person" would think given the same situation. Then why are the seven LAPD officers that shot at the pickup truck during their manhunt for Dorner not serving ten-to-twenty? Because if me and six of my closest friends shot up a random, non-threatening truck with two women in it, there's not a jury in the world who wouldn't convict us, and there's not a prosecutor in the world who would decline to press charges. They are only held to the same standards as the rest of us in theory. In practice, the bar is so low, it's practically nonexistant.
    - Alupis 4y ago
      I think you answered your own question. Because a "reasonable person", given all the same facts the officers had at the moment the shooting occurred, felt the use of force was justified. They did not just get together and shoot up a non-threatening truck with two women in it, as you say. That's what we would say in hindsight, given the facts as-discovered after the incident. The question you should be asking, but didn't, is why the first officer that opened fire is not in trouble for an obvious (in hindsight) wrong call. I would hazard to guess qualified immunity played into that officer's case. Perhaps that is where you should focus.... not on the number of rounds used.