4 ms·

For reference, the LAPD standard issue pistol seems to be a FN 509 MRD-LE, with a magazine capacity of 17. Because police seem to be trained to empty their enti

For reference, the LAPD standard issue pistol seems to be a FN 509 MRD-LE, with a magazine capacity of 17. Because police seem to be trained to empty their entire magazine any time they fire, that would be about in line with this number.

Alupis 4y ago
> Because police seem to be trained to empty their entire magazine any time they fire That is not just police - that is firearms training 101. Even civilian training courses hammer this into you. You do not stop firing until it is absolutely clear there is no more threat. I realize a significant portion of HNers are not familiar with firearms and have had zero firearms training. You'll have to take my word, and that of any other brave voices that this is how it's suppose to work. The amount of rounds fired is quite literally the least concerning thing about the event. My original point was do not use round count as some sort of hammer to make a point - you only come off as uninformed and it diminishes your overall argument.
- ipaddr 4y ago
  Emptying everything is a foolish action because it leaves you without any bullets where unregistered threats can emerge.
  - Alupis 4y ago
    Nobody carries only a single magazine...
    - ipaddr 4y ago
      Taking time and attention to reload means you are a sitting target. Whoever is teaching this assumes one threat and one exchange model which is foolish and fatal in real life. Anyone can take your money and call it a class but it is not what they teach you in the army or special ops. It might go over well with the soccer moms but it is not even a good strategy for paintball.
      - Alupis 4y ago
        > Taking time and attention to reload means you are a sitting target > but it is not what they teach you in the army or special ops What are you even talking about? I hazard to guess you have zero firearms training. Of course people train to reload their firearms. Of course they train to reload their firearms during combat. It's not a musket for crying out loud. This might all be fun and games for most of the people here, but for the folks that train and carry guns for a living - it's pretty darn serious. The things the uninformed masses expect, based on Hollywood movies and B-rated TV shows is dumbfounding and downright dangerous.
        MichaelCollins 4y ago
        Ackshully soldiers of old had extensive training for reloading their muskets in battle. They didn't just shoot once then bayonet charge. At least, the good ones didn't.
        ipaddr 4y ago
        Trying to gatekeep doesn't help you . Unloading all your bullets in a mad rage is poor firearm training aimed at the getting the scared person over the hump to shoot. Trying that in real life will is a foolish newbie thing to do that could get you killed.
- shortstuffsushi 4y ago
  For what it's worth, I was agreeing with you by posting their standard service pistol. However, I am also quite familiar with firearms, and strongly disagree with your belief that this is "the proper technique," it's just what police are currently (improperly, in my very strong opinion) trained to do.
  - Alupis 4y ago
    I'm not sure what training you've had, and don't care to get into some sort of measurement contest, but I can assure you anything beyond "Introductory" classes/training hammer this into you ad nauseum. The gun only comes out for one reason - that is to kill something that you perceive to pose an immediate danger to you or someone around you. The gun does not come out for funsies - if it's out, someone is getting shot until they're not a threat anymore (which can mean different things depending on the situation). It's not a "mag dump" as some have indicated, it's "fire until there's no more threat, reload and keep firing if there is still a threat". The gun is a tool for killing. It is that simple. The gun comes out, someone is dying. It's that cold. This isn't the movies. People don't get hit once and leave the fight... this is real life.
    - shortstuffsushi 4y ago
      As others have responded to you, and like you even said - "fire until there is no further threat" doesn't mean mag dump. However, that is what police do. This is a sign of very poor situational awareness, not "sticking to training." You wonder why others are arguing with you and downvoting you, you're speaking with authority on something, but you're at odds with yourself. You are correct that number of rounds fired is not a good indicator of the "intensity" of a firefight, you are incorrect that this is "normal" or "reasonable" behavior on the part of the police. Continuing to reply to everyone with "it's not a movie, I have training, the rest of you don't" etc doesn't aid your claims, it just makes you sound smug while.. still being wrong.
      - Alupis 4y ago
        I have not seen any officers training to literally "mag dump". We don't know what pistol (if it was even a pistol) was used nor it's magazine capacity, nor if this department allowed accessories like extensions, nor do we know if everyone fired the same amount. So no, nobody "mag dumped" here, and nobody is trained to "mag dump". That's quite a straw man... You are, however, trained to fire until there is no more threat (as repeated over and over). That's exactly what happened here. Turns out in hindsight they got the initial assessment very wrong... that should be the focus of the discussion, not rounds fired. > you're speaking with authority on something No, I just happen to be the only person here with firearms training that is brave enough to burn a bunch of points trying to help uninformed folks focus on what matters (hint, it's not round count).
- MichaelCollins 4y ago
  > Because police seem to be trained to empty their entire magazine any time they fire > You do not stop firing until it is absolutely clear there is no more threat. One does not mean or imply the other. "until there is no more threat" doesn't say anything about a magazine. The only relationship between the two is the presumption that while reloading you will have time to realize your target is already dead, while you might not have realized it a moment before in the haze of gunfire. But nobody is obliged to empty their entire magazine before evaluating the effect they had. Police are trained to stop shooting when the threat is gone and there are ample body camera videos showing police who stop shooting before their magazine is empty. This demonstrates that one is not necessarily synonymous with the other.

Alupis 4y ago

> Because police seem to be trained to empty their entire magazine any time they fire That is not just police - that is firearms training 101. Even civilian training courses hammer this into you. You do not stop firing until it is absolutely clear there is no more threat. I realize a significant portion of HNers are not familiar with firearms and have had zero firearms training. You'll have to take my word, and that of any other brave voices that this is how it's suppose to work. The amount of rounds fired is quite literally the least concerning thing about the event. My original point was do not use round count as some sort of hammer to make a point - you only come off as uninformed and it diminishes your overall argument.

ipaddr 4y ago
Emptying everything is a foolish action because it leaves you without any bullets where unregistered threats can emerge.
- Alupis 4y ago
  Nobody carries only a single magazine...
  - ipaddr 4y ago
    Taking time and attention to reload means you are a sitting target. Whoever is teaching this assumes one threat and one exchange model which is foolish and fatal in real life. Anyone can take your money and call it a class but it is not what they teach you in the army or special ops. It might go over well with the soccer moms but it is not even a good strategy for paintball.
    - Alupis 4y ago
      > Taking time and attention to reload means you are a sitting target > but it is not what they teach you in the army or special ops What are you even talking about? I hazard to guess you have zero firearms training. Of course people train to reload their firearms. Of course they train to reload their firearms during combat. It's not a musket for crying out loud. This might all be fun and games for most of the people here, but for the folks that train and carry guns for a living - it's pretty darn serious. The things the uninformed masses expect, based on Hollywood movies and B-rated TV shows is dumbfounding and downright dangerous.
      - MichaelCollins 4y ago
        Ackshully soldiers of old had extensive training for reloading their muskets in battle. They didn't just shoot once then bayonet charge. At least, the good ones didn't.
      - ipaddr 4y ago
        Trying to gatekeep doesn't help you . Unloading all your bullets in a mad rage is poor firearm training aimed at the getting the scared person over the hump to shoot. Trying that in real life will is a foolish newbie thing to do that could get you killed.
shortstuffsushi 4y ago
For what it's worth, I was agreeing with you by posting their standard service pistol. However, I am also quite familiar with firearms, and strongly disagree with your belief that this is "the proper technique," it's just what police are currently (improperly, in my very strong opinion) trained to do.
- Alupis 4y ago
  I'm not sure what training you've had, and don't care to get into some sort of measurement contest, but I can assure you anything beyond "Introductory" classes/training hammer this into you ad nauseum. The gun only comes out for one reason - that is to kill something that you perceive to pose an immediate danger to you or someone around you. The gun does not come out for funsies - if it's out, someone is getting shot until they're not a threat anymore (which can mean different things depending on the situation). It's not a "mag dump" as some have indicated, it's "fire until there's no more threat, reload and keep firing if there is still a threat". The gun is a tool for killing. It is that simple. The gun comes out, someone is dying. It's that cold. This isn't the movies. People don't get hit once and leave the fight... this is real life.
  - shortstuffsushi 4y ago
    As others have responded to you, and like you even said - "fire until there is no further threat" doesn't mean mag dump. However, that is what police do. This is a sign of very poor situational awareness, not "sticking to training." You wonder why others are arguing with you and downvoting you, you're speaking with authority on something, but you're at odds with yourself. You are correct that number of rounds fired is not a good indicator of the "intensity" of a firefight, you are incorrect that this is "normal" or "reasonable" behavior on the part of the police. Continuing to reply to everyone with "it's not a movie, I have training, the rest of you don't" etc doesn't aid your claims, it just makes you sound smug while.. still being wrong.
    - Alupis 4y ago
      I have not seen any officers training to literally "mag dump". We don't know what pistol (if it was even a pistol) was used nor it's magazine capacity, nor if this department allowed accessories like extensions, nor do we know if everyone fired the same amount. So no, nobody "mag dumped" here, and nobody is trained to "mag dump". That's quite a straw man... You are, however, trained to fire until there is no more threat (as repeated over and over). That's exactly what happened here. Turns out in hindsight they got the initial assessment very wrong... that should be the focus of the discussion, not rounds fired. > you're speaking with authority on something No, I just happen to be the only person here with firearms training that is brave enough to burn a bunch of points trying to help uninformed folks focus on what matters (hint, it's not round count).
MichaelCollins 4y ago
> Because police seem to be trained to empty their entire magazine any time they fire > You do not stop firing until it is absolutely clear there is no more threat. One does not mean or imply the other. "until there is no more threat" doesn't say anything about a magazine. The only relationship between the two is the presumption that while reloading you will have time to realize your target is already dead, while you might not have realized it a moment before in the haze of gunfire. But nobody is obliged to empty their entire magazine before evaluating the effect they had. Police are trained to stop shooting when the threat is gone and there are ample body camera videos showing police who stop shooting before their magazine is empty. This demonstrates that one is not necessarily synonymous with the other.