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Yeah. I was very excited about this until i got to "Bluetooth Low Energy for provisioning" and I was like "oh.." and then "Wi-Fi for high-data rate connectivity

by bisby 4y ago

Yeah. I was very excited about this until i got to "Bluetooth Low Energy for provisioning" and I was like "oh.." and then "Wi-Fi for high-data rate connectivity" was a "oh. no thanks." That's a clear path to the internet and also using multiple radios so that if I lock down one thing I have to constantly worry about others. As it stands I dont see this being a thing that benefits me. It is more likely that this pushes smart home manufacturers away from Zwave, and makes my life worse because now I can't buy IoT devices without granting them internet access. Then I have to go through and start setting up IoT VLANs to quarantine devices, and in some really shitty cases, Ive seen WiFi devices where the app sends a message to a server, and the server sends a message to the device... so I can't quarantine the device without modifying it or losing functionality (see MyQ garage door openers). The industry looks bleak. Agree on all points of preferring Z-wave though and it's also what I use. However, Linus (of Linus Tech Tips) recently redid all the switches in his home with Zwave switches... and they had a firmware issue... And the company refused to publish firmware updates in any way except through "official" Zwave hubs, and not Home Assistant. It eventually got sorted out, but Zwave isn't necessarily intrinsically failproof either.

joshstrange 4y ago
> Agree on all points of preferring Z-wave though and it's also what I use. However, Linus (of Linus Tech Tips) recently redid all the switches in his home with Zwave switches... and they had a firmware issue... And the company refused to publish firmware updates in any way except through "official" Zwave hubs, and not Home Assistant. It eventually got sorted out, but Zwave isn't necessarily intrinsically failproof either. Yes, I followed that drama as well and the did eventually make the newer firmware available to HA and similar though that doesn't exactly negate anything I said. For new features/fixes you are dependent on the manufacturer but that's the same everywhere. The big difference is that if Linus' switch company went out of business then his switches would continue to work the same way they always did (bugs and all). But I do agree with you Z-wave isn't perfect and does sometimes require a little more knowledge to work with. Thankfully I'm all set currently (aside from the SmartThings rug-pull that I have to deal with and finally move everything remaining to HA instead of using my ST hub as just a controller from HA) and I'm just going to sit tight over the next few years and see how things shake out before I upgrade/replace any of my gear.
- bisby 4y ago
  I was just referring to your comment: > As it stands now I don't care at all who made my Z-wave switches/bulbs/plugs, they could already be out of business for all I care If the company was out of business and there was no way to get the newer firmware, LTT might have had issues. Also, buying a switch because it is advertised as having feature X, only to find out that feature X was added in a newer firmware than you have, and you can't get that firmware. That means it isn't just a "I dont care at all who made my product" scenario. It's much lower risk (especially if the feature you want is basic functionality rather than automation), but it's not 0 risk. I agree with you that Z-wave is going to be 100% better than WiFi devices that call home and join a botnet, but I wanted to make sure it was clear that there is still room for issues.
  - lapetitejort 4y ago
    Even if new firmware is out, you're not guaranteed to get it. Linus got it because he has millions of subscribers and if he makes a stink, companies have to listen. If you're a boring customer with just one twitter account at your disposal, you may never be able to update.
    - walterbell 4y ago
      Firmware licensing or device distribution opportunity for Linus Tech Tips.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
RetpolineDrama 4y ago
WiFi is only for devices that need it, like I'm thinking a "matter"-provisioned wireless security camera. It definitely confuses the user story though, idk why they included wifi at all.
- realityking 4y ago
  I suspect a big part is to allow bridges like the new IKEA hub. Lots of folks put those in wifi.
- FinalBriefing 4y ago
  Based on my IoT devices I already have, any device that supports Matter will probably use Wi-Fi to ping back home whenever they can.
  - bisby 4y ago
    From the actual announcement: > Wi-Fi enables Matter devices to interact over a high-bandwidth local network and allows smart home devices to communicate with the cloud. If only there was a way to have it explicitly NOT communicate with the cloud. That's the last thing I want.
    - Semaphor 4y ago
      It’s the same as it always has been. You need to check in advance, if it’s an extra dumb device requiring internet or not.
    - Deukhoofd 4y ago
      I generally just block external internet access for smart devices on my wifi, but it'd be really nice if I didn't have to.
      - heyoni 4y ago
        My AmpliFi router did this the other day. It added itself to HomeKit to create device specific firewall rules for iot devices on my network. The options were like “access everything, access whitelist of services, no access”. I turned on the whitelist but it broke everything :D
the__alchemist 4y ago
Your first paragraph describes my reaction as well. The article's overture was a roller coaster.
zamalek 4y ago
> Zwave isn't necessarily intrinsically failproof either. The one nice thing about it, above Zigbee, is that you can expect devices to work together. With Zigbee you frequently have to pair a device with a hub from the same manufacturer.
- alex3305 4y ago
  Although you can easily circumvent this with a cheap Zigbee USB controller, Raspberry Pi (or other computer) and something like Zigbee2MQTT. My IKEA bulbs, Xiaomi sensors and Philips remotes all work great as a mesh.
- oasisbob 4y ago
  You would think so... On the other hand, Zwave radio spectrum varies depending on region, so you need to be very careful that you don't spend hours troubleshooting something that doesn't work because it's a device intended for the EU market instead of US. IIRC, Zigbee is better here.
  - waste_monk 4y ago
    Yep... cannot use US or EU market (at least I believe that's the case, based on [1] which mentions UK) z-wave gear here in Australia due to incompatible spectrum usage. And the AU market z-wave gear is about twice the price of the US equivalent, since it's low production volume. [1] https://iot.stackexchange.com/a/2393 https://iot.stackexchange.com/a/2393
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  I have more zigbee than i do zwave, never had a problem with either pairing to my Nortek USB Hub
  - spdustin 4y ago
    Aqara Zigbee devices are renowned for having a longer keepalive check-in period than many routers expect. So when they don’t check in on time, the router marks it as dead. Often, a quick tap of the setup button to re-announce it to its router will cause those routers to “unmark” it as dead—you don’t need to re-pair it. But it’s frustrating enough when it happens. I have a handful of Aqara sensors that constantly dropped away, so I just flashed an XBee with router firmware and have it on a small USB battery that stays plugged in. That way power outages won’t cause issues with the “leave and rejoin” request that routers will issue to aged-out devices, which my Aqara devices seem to balk at.
la64710 4y ago
Where is the developer docs? The site leads to some document under solutions that needs to be downloaded to read. It is also not clear why a protocol specs or implementation should be categorized by solutions. Overall the site documentation lacks transparency.
- mch82 4y ago
  Wikipedia article links to the key websites, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter_(standard) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter_(standard) I had less luck finding Matter with DuckDuckGo. Evidently a competitive search term (which is to be expected).
jsmith45 4y ago
The whole idea of Matter is local control over IPv6. From what I understand, it is basically Zigbee's cluster library re-platformed on top of new encrypted mesh layer that runs on IPV6. This does technically mean that all such devices can send out arbitrary IPv6 packets, and for Ethernet and Wifi can even send out ipv4. When operating via thread, those ipv6 packets are just using it as low powered wifi alternative for those packets. Both Wifi and Thread connections thus require two levels of joining. One for connection to the AP/thread mesh network, and one for the matter encrypted network. Ethernet based devices on the other hand, can simply join directly to the matter encrypted network. BLE for joining can simplify this, as a controller can provide the needed info about thread or wifi, as well as the info needed to join the matter network. ---- Now I very much support local control. Most of my smart home devices right now are either Zigbee or Z-Wave. I have 9 z-wave devices (plus the home-assistant controller), and 4 Zigbee ones at the moment, although only 2 are in use. (These current ones will never upgeade to support matter over thread). I am waiting on he new inovelli switches which will initially run on zigbee, but I will probably later upgrade them to run on matter. (After I buy a new zigbee radio dongle that supports dual stack zigbee/thread operation, and home-assistant officially releases their support for doing that). But those of us running home-assistant, or the like are not the real target market of Matter. For more typical users, they end up with a bunch of smart devices that are wither wifi based, or have their own hub. Each one has a seperate app. Some might be homekit compatible, some might be hue compatible (work via the hue hub and its app), some might be compatible with amazon Alexa via the cloud, some might work for Alexa via zigbee (but only if you have an echo model that supports zigbee). It is not easy for consumers to even be certain what works with what. With Matter, every Matter device will be compatible with homekit, will be compatible with Alexa, will be compatible with google home, will be compatible with SmartThings. The only requirements are that your controller device have support for the general type of device in question, and if it is a Thread device you have at least one Thread "border router" (ip gateway, equivalent to wifi AP) in your matter network. Homepods for example include such a border router, and likely some future Amazon Echo models will too, and it has been suggested that some Wifi Routers will include that functionality too. That is a huge win for the average consumer!

by bisby 4y ago

joshstrange 4y ago

> Agree on all points of preferring Z-wave though and it's also what I use. However, Linus (of Linus Tech Tips) recently redid all the switches in his home with Zwave switches... and they had a firmware issue... And the company refused to publish firmware updates in any way except through "official" Zwave hubs, and not Home Assistant. It eventually got sorted out, but Zwave isn't necessarily intrinsically failproof either. Yes, I followed that drama as well and the did eventually make the newer firmware available to HA and similar though that doesn't exactly negate anything I said. For new features/fixes you are dependent on the manufacturer but that's the same everywhere. The big difference is that if Linus' switch company went out of business then his switches would continue to work the same way they always did (bugs and all). But I do agree with you Z-wave isn't perfect and does sometimes require a little more knowledge to work with. Thankfully I'm all set currently (aside from the SmartThings rug-pull that I have to deal with and finally move everything remaining to HA instead of using my ST hub as just a controller from HA) and I'm just going to sit tight over the next few years and see how things shake out before I upgrade/replace any of my gear.

bisby 4y ago
I was just referring to your comment: > As it stands now I don't care at all who made my Z-wave switches/bulbs/plugs, they could already be out of business for all I care If the company was out of business and there was no way to get the newer firmware, LTT might have had issues. Also, buying a switch because it is advertised as having feature X, only to find out that feature X was added in a newer firmware than you have, and you can't get that firmware. That means it isn't just a "I dont care at all who made my product" scenario. It's much lower risk (especially if the feature you want is basic functionality rather than automation), but it's not 0 risk. I agree with you that Z-wave is going to be 100% better than WiFi devices that call home and join a botnet, but I wanted to make sure it was clear that there is still room for issues.
- lapetitejort 4y ago
  Even if new firmware is out, you're not guaranteed to get it. Linus got it because he has millions of subscribers and if he makes a stink, companies have to listen. If you're a boring customer with just one twitter account at your disposal, you may never be able to update.
  - walterbell 4y ago
    Firmware licensing or device distribution opportunity for Linus Tech Tips.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

RetpolineDrama 4y ago

WiFi is only for devices that need it, like I'm thinking a "matter"-provisioned wireless security camera. It definitely confuses the user story though, idk why they included wifi at all.

realityking 4y ago
I suspect a big part is to allow bridges like the new IKEA hub. Lots of folks put those in wifi.
FinalBriefing 4y ago
Based on my IoT devices I already have, any device that supports Matter will probably use Wi-Fi to ping back home whenever they can.
- bisby 4y ago
  From the actual announcement: > Wi-Fi enables Matter devices to interact over a high-bandwidth local network and allows smart home devices to communicate with the cloud. If only there was a way to have it explicitly NOT communicate with the cloud. That's the last thing I want.
  - Semaphor 4y ago
    It’s the same as it always has been. You need to check in advance, if it’s an extra dumb device requiring internet or not.
  - Deukhoofd 4y ago
    I generally just block external internet access for smart devices on my wifi, but it'd be really nice if I didn't have to.
    - heyoni 4y ago
      My AmpliFi router did this the other day. It added itself to HomeKit to create device specific firewall rules for iot devices on my network. The options were like “access everything, access whitelist of services, no access”. I turned on the whitelist but it broke everything :D

the__alchemist 4y ago

Your first paragraph describes my reaction as well. The article's overture was a roller coaster.

zamalek 4y ago

> Zwave isn't necessarily intrinsically failproof either. The one nice thing about it, above Zigbee, is that you can expect devices to work together. With Zigbee you frequently have to pair a device with a hub from the same manufacturer.

alex3305 4y ago
Although you can easily circumvent this with a cheap Zigbee USB controller, Raspberry Pi (or other computer) and something like Zigbee2MQTT. My IKEA bulbs, Xiaomi sensors and Philips remotes all work great as a mesh.
oasisbob 4y ago
You would think so... On the other hand, Zwave radio spectrum varies depending on region, so you need to be very careful that you don't spend hours troubleshooting something that doesn't work because it's a device intended for the EU market instead of US. IIRC, Zigbee is better here.
- waste_monk 4y ago
  Yep... cannot use US or EU market (at least I believe that's the case, based on [1] which mentions UK) z-wave gear here in Australia due to incompatible spectrum usage. And the AU market z-wave gear is about twice the price of the US equivalent, since it's low production volume. [1] https://iot.stackexchange.com/a/2393 https://iot.stackexchange.com/a/2393
phpisthebest 4y ago
I have more zigbee than i do zwave, never had a problem with either pairing to my Nortek USB Hub
- spdustin 4y ago
  Aqara Zigbee devices are renowned for having a longer keepalive check-in period than many routers expect. So when they don’t check in on time, the router marks it as dead. Often, a quick tap of the setup button to re-announce it to its router will cause those routers to “unmark” it as dead—you don’t need to re-pair it. But it’s frustrating enough when it happens. I have a handful of Aqara sensors that constantly dropped away, so I just flashed an XBee with router firmware and have it on a small USB battery that stays plugged in. That way power outages won’t cause issues with the “leave and rejoin” request that routers will issue to aged-out devices, which my Aqara devices seem to balk at.

la64710 4y ago

Where is the developer docs? The site leads to some document under solutions that needs to be downloaded to read. It is also not clear why a protocol specs or implementation should be categorized by solutions. Overall the site documentation lacks transparency.

mch82 4y ago
Wikipedia article links to the key websites, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter_(standard) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter_(standard) I had less luck finding Matter with DuckDuckGo. Evidently a competitive search term (which is to be expected).

jsmith45 4y ago

The whole idea of Matter is local control over IPv6. From what I understand, it is basically Zigbee's cluster library re-platformed on top of new encrypted mesh layer that runs on IPV6. This does technically mean that all such devices can send out arbitrary IPv6 packets, and for Ethernet and Wifi can even send out ipv4. When operating via thread, those ipv6 packets are just using it as low powered wifi alternative for those packets. Both Wifi and Thread connections thus require two levels of joining. One for connection to the AP/thread mesh network, and one for the matter encrypted network. Ethernet based devices on the other hand, can simply join directly to the matter encrypted network. BLE for joining can simplify this, as a controller can provide the needed info about thread or wifi, as well as the info needed to join the matter network. ---- Now I very much support local control. Most of my smart home devices right now are either Zigbee or Z-Wave. I have 9 z-wave devices (plus the home-assistant controller), and 4 Zigbee ones at the moment, although only 2 are in use. (These current ones will never upgeade to support matter over thread). I am waiting on he new inovelli switches which will initially run on zigbee, but I will probably later upgrade them to run on matter. (After I buy a new zigbee radio dongle that supports dual stack zigbee/thread operation, and home-assistant officially releases their support for doing that). But those of us running home-assistant, or the like are not the real target market of Matter. For more typical users, they end up with a bunch of smart devices that are wither wifi based, or have their own hub. Each one has a seperate app. Some might be homekit compatible, some might be hue compatible (work via the hue hub and its app), some might be compatible with amazon Alexa via the cloud, some might work for Alexa via zigbee (but only if you have an echo model that supports zigbee). It is not easy for consumers to even be certain what works with what. With Matter, every Matter device will be compatible with homekit, will be compatible with Alexa, will be compatible with google home, will be compatible with SmartThings. The only requirements are that your controller device have support for the general type of device in question, and if it is a Thread device you have at least one Thread "border router" (ip gateway, equivalent to wifi AP) in your matter network. Homepods for example include such a border router, and likely some future Amazon Echo models will too, and it has been suggested that some Wifi Routers will include that functionality too. That is a huge win for the average consumer!