4 ms·

If they only intended to beat him up but accidentally killed him, that would be second degree murder. It could possibly be first degree murder, if California's

If they only intended to beat him up but accidentally killed him, that would be second degree murder. It could possibly be first degree murder, if California's felony murder rule were applied, maybe using the crime of torture as the felony.

woodruffw 4y ago
That's a good point; I forgot about felony murder.
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samatman 4y ago
Witness intimidation is definitely a felony, even (especially) when the police do it.
- MichaelCollins 4y ago
  IANAL but I believe California's felony murder rule only applies to specific kinds of felonies, and I don't believe witness intimidation is included: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=PEN&sectionNum=189 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio... > (a) All murder that is perpetrated by means of a destructive device or explosive, a weapon of mass destruction, knowing use of ammunition designed primarily to penetrate metal or armor, poison, lying in wait, torture, or by any other kind of willful, deliberate, and premeditated killing, or that is committed in the perpetration of, or attempt to perpetrate, arson, rape, carjacking, robbery, burglary, mayhem, kidnapping, train wrecking, or any act punishable under Section 206, 286, 287, 288, or 289, or former Section 288a, or murder that is perpetrated by means of discharging a firearm from a motor vehicle, intentionally at another person outside of the vehicle with the intent to inflict death, is murder of the first degree. Torture seems the most likely to apply in this situation: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=206.&lawCode=PEN https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio... > Every person who, with the intent to cause cruel or extreme pain and suffering for the purpose of revenge, extortion, persuasion, or for any sadistic purpose, inflicts great bodily injury as defined in Section 12022.7 upon the person of another, is guilty of torture. I think a revenge beating meets that definition of torture, and torture is one of the felonies specifically listed in California's felony murder rule.
  - samatman 4y ago
    Thanks for the added detail, I did technically only make the claim that it's a felony, but it was under the presumption that this felony would count for felony murder. Seems like an oversight, witness intimidation is exactly the kind of aggravating felony that the statute had in mind. But that's neither here nor there.

woodruffw 4y ago

That's a good point; I forgot about felony murder.

deleted 4y ago

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samatman 4y ago

Witness intimidation is definitely a felony, even (especially) when the police do it.

MichaelCollins 4y ago
IANAL but I believe California's felony murder rule only applies to specific kinds of felonies, and I don't believe witness intimidation is included: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=PEN&sectionNum=189 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio... > (a) All murder that is perpetrated by means of a destructive device or explosive, a weapon of mass destruction, knowing use of ammunition designed primarily to penetrate metal or armor, poison, lying in wait, torture, or by any other kind of willful, deliberate, and premeditated killing, or that is committed in the perpetration of, or attempt to perpetrate, arson, rape, carjacking, robbery, burglary, mayhem, kidnapping, train wrecking, or any act punishable under Section 206, 286, 287, 288, or 289, or former Section 288a, or murder that is perpetrated by means of discharging a firearm from a motor vehicle, intentionally at another person outside of the vehicle with the intent to inflict death, is murder of the first degree. Torture seems the most likely to apply in this situation: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=206.&lawCode=PEN https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio... > Every person who, with the intent to cause cruel or extreme pain and suffering for the purpose of revenge, extortion, persuasion, or for any sadistic purpose, inflicts great bodily injury as defined in Section 12022.7 upon the person of another, is guilty of torture. I think a revenge beating meets that definition of torture, and torture is one of the felonies specifically listed in California's felony murder rule.
- samatman 4y ago
  Thanks for the added detail, I did technically only make the claim that it's a felony, but it was under the presumption that this felony would count for felony murder. Seems like an oversight, witness intimidation is exactly the kind of aggravating felony that the statute had in mind. But that's neither here nor there.