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How many other professions in the world have a Wikipedia page for XYZ code of silence[1]? Further reading: https://aele.org/loscode2000.html https://aele.org/l

by mox1 4y ago

How many other professions in the world have a Wikipedia page for XYZ code of silence[1]? Further reading: https://aele.org/loscode2000.html https://aele.org/loscode2000.html 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_wall_of_silence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_wall_of_silence

seti0Cha 4y ago
This argument basically boils down to "if that were not the case, why would so many people say it was the case"? That's not a great way to decide important issues.
- Retric 4y ago
  Cops talk about the blue all of silence not just regular people. It shows up in multiple court cases with cops lying to protect other cops up to and including perjury. To read the bias read up on the Jason Van Dyke case, first time in 50 years a Chicago cop convicted of murder after being caught on camera and he served 3 and 1/4 years in prison. “The U.S. attorney's office confirmed on April 13, 2015,[57] that they had been conducting a federal criminal investigation of the McDonald case in conjunction with the state attorney's office, after contradictions were found between the initial police report and the dash-cam video” Look, if you have zero counter evidence than any evidence to the contrary should be persuasive.
  - seti0Cha 4y ago
    Citing individual cases doesn't say anything about what is usual. And you're the one making a claim that cops usually are not held accountable. I'm not trying to convince you that they usually are, I'm just saying that that's what I believe and offering to let you convince me. So no, I don't have to provide any evidence. If you don't want to either fine. But then why are you replying? edit: looking at this again, I think I misread your point. You're claiming that unless I have evidence that shows that police are usually held accountable, then any evidence that they are not, even anecdotal, should convince me. I would say that's plainly not correct. If I know nothing about whether police are held accountable, a single case demonstrating one not being held accountable does not warrant assuming they usually are not. It only demonstrates that they are not always held accountable and tells me nothing about frequency. Drawing broad inferences from too little data is a pernicious problem in our society. That said, I can find plenty of anecdotes where cops were held accountable. How am I to know which is more typical?
    - Retric 4y ago
      It’s often overblown but Bayesian statistics shows you should ideally update your mental model with every single piece of new information. It’s unrealistic to actually carry that out in every case, but in cases where you have zero evidence updating your views based on the first bit of evidence you receive is absolutely the correct choice. The degree to which any single piece of evidence should change your mindset is of course minimal, but holding a view with zero supporting evidence in the face of multiple pieces of counter evidence is a sign of insanity.
      - seti0Cha 4y ago
        Well I did minimally adjust my priors based on that evidence actually. The fact that a lot of people are making claims here also adjusts them very slightly (I already knew many people felt this way). But I've got heavy weighting on policy matters needing non-anecdotal data, so not much of a change really.
        Retric 4y ago
        The statistics are available ex: In the United States between 2005 and 2020, of the 42 nonfederal police officers convicted following their arrest for murder due to an on-duty shooting, only five ended up being convicted of murder. By comparison: In 2018 70% of US murder cases resulted in conviction.
        ninkendo 4y ago
        That would make sense though, right? We literally make officers carry guns and tell them “use this to defend yourself, and as a last resort against dangerous suspects when the situation warrants” as part of their job description. It stands to reason that the likelihood of a cop using their gun in a “legal” way is higher on average than the average person who fires a gun. Even in cases where an officer does get arrested on suspicion of murder, it’s less likely to be convict-able than average.
        4y ago

by mox1 4y ago

seti0Cha 4y ago

This argument basically boils down to "if that were not the case, why would so many people say it was the case"? That's not a great way to decide important issues.

Retric 4y ago
Cops talk about the blue all of silence not just regular people. It shows up in multiple court cases with cops lying to protect other cops up to and including perjury. To read the bias read up on the Jason Van Dyke case, first time in 50 years a Chicago cop convicted of murder after being caught on camera and he served 3 and 1/4 years in prison. “The U.S. attorney's office confirmed on April 13, 2015,[57] that they had been conducting a federal criminal investigation of the McDonald case in conjunction with the state attorney's office, after contradictions were found between the initial police report and the dash-cam video” Look, if you have zero counter evidence than any evidence to the contrary should be persuasive.
- seti0Cha 4y ago
  Citing individual cases doesn't say anything about what is usual. And you're the one making a claim that cops usually are not held accountable. I'm not trying to convince you that they usually are, I'm just saying that that's what I believe and offering to let you convince me. So no, I don't have to provide any evidence. If you don't want to either fine. But then why are you replying? edit: looking at this again, I think I misread your point. You're claiming that unless I have evidence that shows that police are usually held accountable, then any evidence that they are not, even anecdotal, should convince me. I would say that's plainly not correct. If I know nothing about whether police are held accountable, a single case demonstrating one not being held accountable does not warrant assuming they usually are not. It only demonstrates that they are not always held accountable and tells me nothing about frequency. Drawing broad inferences from too little data is a pernicious problem in our society. That said, I can find plenty of anecdotes where cops were held accountable. How am I to know which is more typical?
  - Retric 4y ago
    It’s often overblown but Bayesian statistics shows you should ideally update your mental model with every single piece of new information. It’s unrealistic to actually carry that out in every case, but in cases where you have zero evidence updating your views based on the first bit of evidence you receive is absolutely the correct choice. The degree to which any single piece of evidence should change your mindset is of course minimal, but holding a view with zero supporting evidence in the face of multiple pieces of counter evidence is a sign of insanity.
    - seti0Cha 4y ago
      Well I did minimally adjust my priors based on that evidence actually. The fact that a lot of people are making claims here also adjusts them very slightly (I already knew many people felt this way). But I've got heavy weighting on policy matters needing non-anecdotal data, so not much of a change really.
      - Retric 4y ago
        The statistics are available ex: In the United States between 2005 and 2020, of the 42 nonfederal police officers convicted following their arrest for murder due to an on-duty shooting, only five ended up being convicted of murder. By comparison: In 2018 70% of US murder cases resulted in conviction.
        ninkendo 4y ago
        That would make sense though, right? We literally make officers carry guns and tell them “use this to defend yourself, and as a last resort against dangerous suspects when the situation warrants” as part of their job description. It stands to reason that the likelihood of a cop using their gun in a “legal” way is higher on average than the average person who fires a gun. Even in cases where an officer does get arrested on suspicion of murder, it’s less likely to be convict-able than average.
        4y ago