7 ms·

no, thread is a rebranding (and evolution) of the zigbee protocol, which is a low-power, local mesh network with no inherent internet connectivity. zigbee/threa

no, thread is a rebranding (and evolution) of the zigbee protocol, which is a low-power, local mesh network with no inherent internet connectivity. zigbee/thread devices work offline first, with switches that are an integral part of the local mesh network. these devices can also be connected to the internet through a hub/border router, if you so choose. matter is the umbrella brand name for the combo of BLE, wifi, and thread that provides a complete IoT ecosystem. i have a bunch of zigbee devices (mostly ikea tradfri) that i'm eager to upgrade in the hopes that i get more reliability and speed out of my connected devices (mostly lighting).

bombcar 4y ago
Why the HELL do companies and whatnot keep rebranding from something INSANELY EASY to search like Zigbee to something ENTIRELY GENERIC like thread? explodes
- balloob 4y ago
  Because they didn't. The only thing that Thread shares with Zigbee is the radio. It's a completely different standard.
  - lancepioch 4y ago
    Zigbee Alliance renamed themselves to the CSA. Can companies still keep making Zigbee devices after Matter? Sure, it's not impossible, but it's not really going to happen much more than somebody producing anything else obsolete. The fact of the matter is that Zigbee isn't competing with Matter, it's being replaced with Matter. Rebranding may not be the best choice of words, but I think you're missing the point.
    - bombcar 4y ago
      Confederate States of America? Ballsy move.
- piceas 4y ago
  I suspect it is desirable as one is supposed to search for the marketed products. The magic smoke that binds the device to the app or blinky lights is of little importance.
- sekh60 4y ago
  At least it wasn't Nintendo in charge of the naming, then it would be New ZigBee.
  - Semaphor 4y ago
    If it was MS, it would start as ZigbeeSpecial 1, followed by ZigBee 5 and be incompatible with ZigBee 3.0 edit: Just in case anyone is not following C# developments Old: .NET 1.0 … -> .NET 4.7 -> .NET 4.8 New and not compatible: dotnetcore 1 … -> dotnetcore 3 -> .NET 5 And of course, there is their ORM which did not drop the "core" part, so for .NET 4.8 there is Entity Framework 6, the version for .NET 5 is called Entity Framework Core and reached 6 as well last year. For ASP.NET (that is, on .NET 4.8) MVC 5 is the current MVC solution, I think for ASP.NET Core (.NET 5) MVC 6 might be, but despite actually working with those technologies, I’m not sure.
  - Andrex 4y ago
    ZigBii
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  because they do not want you searching for protocol compatiblity, they want you to lock into a vendor they want you to look for "Alexa" or "Google Home" or "Apple HomeKit" labels, not "Zigbee" or "thread" or "zwave"
- fomine3 4y ago
  Drop formerly MassDrop, Wise formerly TransferWise
joshstrange 4y ago
If all they do is connect to the hub and then the hub controls all external access then that's fine. I'm just unclear as to why there is so much talk about IPv6/cloud/TCP/UDP for something that is only talking to a local hub. I mean I totally get you can use all of that (save for "cloud") 100% locally but if that were the case I'd expect more mention of that. I'm ok with using wifi-adjacent for communication, internally but I do not all my "thread" devices to have internet access (local or external).
- bisby 4y ago
  > Bluetooth Low Energy for provisioning via a QR code, while it relies on Wi-Fi for high-data rate connectivity and Thread for low-data-rate communications. They will only use "thread" for low data rate communications. They will all have Wi-Fi. thus the ipv6/cloud/tcp/udp talk. I want _just_ thread out of these things. I want my devices to talk to my zwave/zigbee/thread network and to not talk to the cloud without my permission.
  - bryanlarsen 4y ago
    > They will all have Wi-Fi. AFAICT, devices that don't need high-data rate connectivity aren't required to have WiFi. IOW a thread camera will have WiFi but a thread light switch doesn't have to.
    - clairity 4y ago
      yup, i should have noted that wrinkle in my original comment. some devices will have wifi connectivity built in because they need the bandwidth (and maybe the wider access too), but many won't, because they don't need the bandwidth nor the higher power consumption that comes with it. zigbee/thread-only devices can't route to the wider internet directly because of protocol differences, which is why it needs the border router, but obviously wifi connected devices can. what matter does is standardizes this combo behavior across devices for interoperability.
    - bisby 4y ago
      If some devices aren't required to have WiFi, then how do they effectively mesh with other devices? If I have a camera on the far side of my house, and then have a daisy chain of light switches back to my hub... the camera can communicate over zigbee/thread back to the hub to get low data instructions. and all the switches can get on/off commands.... but the camera has to communicate all the way back to the hub via WiFi. Which makes the WiFi not really a mesh, but a standard WiFi connect to the hub. And I assume there is no way to make sure that the camera never connects to the internet without setting up firewall rules on my router. Because the announcement specifically calls out the ability for smart devices to phone home as a perk, I imagine blocking devices from phoning home isn't an option, and you have to assume that any device with WiFi will attempt to phone home even if it's not "smart". If there was a way on hubs to have mobile phone like permissions. "This device can use local WiFi" and "This device can access the internet for Smart stuff" as separate permissions, I might be ok. But since most WiFi IoT devices are dumb and just punch a tunnel through your firewall so you can access them with a mobile app and wind up in botnets, I don't have a lot of faith in IoT companies to do it right, so until I can be assured (and verify myself) that WiFi doesn't mean "can phone home", theres no way in hell Im going to use Matter wifi devices.
FerdSlav 4y ago
Stating that Thread is a rebranding of Zigbee is incorrect. Both are based on 802.15.4 for their physical layer but the two are entirely separate and managed by different standards bodies (Zigbee under the Zigbee Alliance, now CSA - Thread under the Thread Group). Where some confusion may come is that Matter is now also under the CSA (just like Zigbee).
- clairity 4y ago
  while you're technically correct, it's a rebranding from the (zigbee) consumer's perspective, via the CSA being a rebranding of the zigbee alliance. within that context, thread is the most direct analog of the zigbee protocol, as they're both implementations of 802.15.4 for low-power local mesh. consumers won't need to (and most won't want to) understand it deeper than that.
wyager 4y ago
Matter/thread is nothing like zigbee, except the MAC layer is the same. For one, Thread uses IP(v6), and Zigbee does not use IP at all. This will make managing thread networks much more like managing normal networks (hopefully). I don't know why you think your zigbee devices will be upgradeable to thread - that strikes me as quite unlikely, although perhaps physically possible depending on how much hardware offload the devices use.
- FerdSlav 4y ago
  > Matter/thread is nothing like zigbee, except the MAC layer is the same. Matter actually uses an iteration of the Zigbee device model - from an application level they are actually somewhat similar > I don't know why you think your zigbee devices will be upgradeable to thread - that strikes me as quite unlikely Most Zigbee radios are dual Zigbee/Thread since both protocols are build on 802.15.4. I suspect that the limitation is going to be on manufacturers rather than hardware limitations

bombcar 4y ago

Why the HELL do companies and whatnot keep rebranding from something INSANELY EASY to search like Zigbee to something ENTIRELY GENERIC like thread? explodes

balloob 4y ago
Because they didn't. The only thing that Thread shares with Zigbee is the radio. It's a completely different standard.
- lancepioch 4y ago
  Zigbee Alliance renamed themselves to the CSA. Can companies still keep making Zigbee devices after Matter? Sure, it's not impossible, but it's not really going to happen much more than somebody producing anything else obsolete. The fact of the matter is that Zigbee isn't competing with Matter, it's being replaced with Matter. Rebranding may not be the best choice of words, but I think you're missing the point.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    Confederate States of America? Ballsy move.
piceas 4y ago
I suspect it is desirable as one is supposed to search for the marketed products. The magic smoke that binds the device to the app or blinky lights is of little importance.
sekh60 4y ago
At least it wasn't Nintendo in charge of the naming, then it would be New ZigBee.
- Semaphor 4y ago
  If it was MS, it would start as ZigbeeSpecial 1, followed by ZigBee 5 and be incompatible with ZigBee 3.0 edit: Just in case anyone is not following C# developments Old: .NET 1.0 … -> .NET 4.7 -> .NET 4.8 New and not compatible: dotnetcore 1 … -> dotnetcore 3 -> .NET 5 And of course, there is their ORM which did not drop the "core" part, so for .NET 4.8 there is Entity Framework 6, the version for .NET 5 is called Entity Framework Core and reached 6 as well last year. For ASP.NET (that is, on .NET 4.8) MVC 5 is the current MVC solution, I think for ASP.NET Core (.NET 5) MVC 6 might be, but despite actually working with those technologies, I’m not sure.
- Andrex 4y ago
  ZigBii
phpisthebest 4y ago
because they do not want you searching for protocol compatiblity, they want you to lock into a vendor they want you to look for "Alexa" or "Google Home" or "Apple HomeKit" labels, not "Zigbee" or "thread" or "zwave"
fomine3 4y ago
Drop formerly MassDrop, Wise formerly TransferWise

joshstrange 4y ago

If all they do is connect to the hub and then the hub controls all external access then that's fine. I'm just unclear as to why there is so much talk about IPv6/cloud/TCP/UDP for something that is only talking to a local hub. I mean I totally get you can use all of that (save for "cloud") 100% locally but if that were the case I'd expect more mention of that. I'm ok with using wifi-adjacent for communication, internally but I do not all my "thread" devices to have internet access (local or external).

bisby 4y ago
> Bluetooth Low Energy for provisioning via a QR code, while it relies on Wi-Fi for high-data rate connectivity and Thread for low-data-rate communications. They will only use "thread" for low data rate communications. They will all have Wi-Fi. thus the ipv6/cloud/tcp/udp talk. I want _just_ thread out of these things. I want my devices to talk to my zwave/zigbee/thread network and to not talk to the cloud without my permission.
- bryanlarsen 4y ago
  > They will all have Wi-Fi. AFAICT, devices that don't need high-data rate connectivity aren't required to have WiFi. IOW a thread camera will have WiFi but a thread light switch doesn't have to.
  - clairity 4y ago
    yup, i should have noted that wrinkle in my original comment. some devices will have wifi connectivity built in because they need the bandwidth (and maybe the wider access too), but many won't, because they don't need the bandwidth nor the higher power consumption that comes with it. zigbee/thread-only devices can't route to the wider internet directly because of protocol differences, which is why it needs the border router, but obviously wifi connected devices can. what matter does is standardizes this combo behavior across devices for interoperability.
  - bisby 4y ago
    If some devices aren't required to have WiFi, then how do they effectively mesh with other devices? If I have a camera on the far side of my house, and then have a daisy chain of light switches back to my hub... the camera can communicate over zigbee/thread back to the hub to get low data instructions. and all the switches can get on/off commands.... but the camera has to communicate all the way back to the hub via WiFi. Which makes the WiFi not really a mesh, but a standard WiFi connect to the hub. And I assume there is no way to make sure that the camera never connects to the internet without setting up firewall rules on my router. Because the announcement specifically calls out the ability for smart devices to phone home as a perk, I imagine blocking devices from phoning home isn't an option, and you have to assume that any device with WiFi will attempt to phone home even if it's not "smart". If there was a way on hubs to have mobile phone like permissions. "This device can use local WiFi" and "This device can access the internet for Smart stuff" as separate permissions, I might be ok. But since most WiFi IoT devices are dumb and just punch a tunnel through your firewall so you can access them with a mobile app and wind up in botnets, I don't have a lot of faith in IoT companies to do it right, so until I can be assured (and verify myself) that WiFi doesn't mean "can phone home", theres no way in hell Im going to use Matter wifi devices.

FerdSlav 4y ago

Stating that Thread is a rebranding of Zigbee is incorrect. Both are based on 802.15.4 for their physical layer but the two are entirely separate and managed by different standards bodies (Zigbee under the Zigbee Alliance, now CSA - Thread under the Thread Group). Where some confusion may come is that Matter is now also under the CSA (just like Zigbee).

clairity 4y ago
while you're technically correct, it's a rebranding from the (zigbee) consumer's perspective, via the CSA being a rebranding of the zigbee alliance. within that context, thread is the most direct analog of the zigbee protocol, as they're both implementations of 802.15.4 for low-power local mesh. consumers won't need to (and most won't want to) understand it deeper than that.

wyager 4y ago

Matter/thread is nothing like zigbee, except the MAC layer is the same. For one, Thread uses IP(v6), and Zigbee does not use IP at all. This will make managing thread networks much more like managing normal networks (hopefully). I don't know why you think your zigbee devices will be upgradeable to thread - that strikes me as quite unlikely, although perhaps physically possible depending on how much hardware offload the devices use.

FerdSlav 4y ago
> Matter/thread is nothing like zigbee, except the MAC layer is the same. Matter actually uses an iteration of the Zigbee device model - from an application level they are actually somewhat similar > I don't know why you think your zigbee devices will be upgradeable to thread - that strikes me as quite unlikely Most Zigbee radios are dual Zigbee/Thread since both protocols are build on 802.15.4. I suspect that the limitation is going to be on manufacturers rather than hardware limitations