4 ms·

What's the "Big Lie"?

sjsdaiuasgdia 4y ago
Generally speaking, "the Big Lie" refers to the idea that the 2020 US presidential election's result was fraudulent and Donald Trump was the true winner.
- woodruffw 4y ago
  That's the most recent application; it comes more originally from one of the primary scapegoats used by the Nazis against the European Jews[1]. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie
  - Hnrobert42 4y ago
    True. I meant it in both senses. That is, if we don’t actively examine our biases, we are susceptible to whatever big lie is the Big Lie of the time.
  - danans 4y ago
    The concept of a great lie or deception is really far older, present even in the biblical descriptions of Satan as the "Great Deceiver".
    - woodruffw 4y ago
      It's a term of art, referring to a specific kind of propaganda. I don't think it was inspired by that particular euphemism for Satan.
      - danans 4y ago
        > I don't think it was inspired by that particular euphemism for Satan. Agreed, just as the usage referring to denial of the 2020 US presidential election was not inspired by its usage by the Nazis. My point is only that "Big Lie/Liar" or some variant thereof has been a phrase used rhetorically for millennia.
        woodruffw 4y ago
        I think the connection between the Big Lie of Nazism and the Big Lie of our former president is pretty clear: it’s a well-understood historical term, with relevant parallels. I find it difficult to believe that American journalists, an otherwise well-read and historically informed community of people, would conjure the concept without intending it as a reference. And certainly in that fashion more than as a prosaic form of “this lie was extra big.” Edit: For example, here is an NPR article that explicitly makes the connection between the two Big Lies[1]. [1]: https://www.npr.org/2021/12/23/1065277246/trump-big-lie-jan-6-election https://www.npr.org/2021/12/23/1065277246/trump-big-lie-jan-...
        danans 4y ago
        > the connection between the Big Lie of Nazism and the Big Lie of our former president is pretty clear I agree that if the actual location of the truth is disregarded they are similar. However, in these cases, the truth is on the opposite side of the accusation from each other. Hitler untruthfully accused Jews of promoting a lie, and hence blaming them for Germany's defeat in WW1 and problems afterwards. Whereas the former president has truthfully been accused of promoting a lie that he won the previous election. When the truth is on the opposite side of the accusation in either case, they are really quite different usages of the phrase. > I find it difficult to believe that American journalists, an otherwise well-read and historically informed community of people, would conjure the concept without intending it as a reference I don't think there is any intentional journalistic allusion happening by using the term. "Big" and "Lie" are such utterly common words by themselves and together in English that people readily understand them in the immediately relevant context. Calling it a "Great Misrepresentation" or something else would be beating around the bush instead of just calling it what it is.
        woodruffw 4y ago
        I think you're confusing yourself: Hitler's Big Lie was the lie that the Jews promoted a falsehood. Trump's Big Lie was the lie that he actually won the US election. In both cases, the direction of the lie is the same. Your confusion seems to stem from the fact that the original Big Lie is a lie about a lie. But this doesn't change the actual structural, namely: a Big Lie is a gross distortion of truth, so gross that its believers take its size to be evidence of veracity itself. Both Hitler's and Trump's Big Lie conform to this exact structure: the lies of International Jewry and a Stolen Election are so great, so inconceivable, that they stagger the listener into consideration. > I don't think there is any intentional journalistic allusion happening I gave you a link to an article where the allusion is direct and explicit. Or do you think they came up with the phrase themselves, Googled it, and retconned it into place?
  - rvz 4y ago
    Exactly. Like the West's "Big Lie" on the whole 'War on Terror' operation justifying and using the media to fool the public with Iraq having possession of "Hidden WMDs in Iraq with Saddam Hussein about to launch them in minutes"; as a justification of invasion and repeating this lie when they knew it was false. A propaganda technique which fooled the world into a forever war that never should have happened in the first place which Wikipedia won't mention or tell you about.
    - runesofdoom 4y ago
      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationale_for_the_Iraq_War https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationale_for_the_Iraq_War "Accusations of faulty evidence and alleged shifting rationales became the focal point for critics of the war, who charge that the Bush administration purposely fabricated evidence to justify an invasion that it had long planned to launch."
reb 4y ago
Donald Trump's claim that he won the 2020 election.

Generally speaking, "the Big Lie" refers to the idea that the 2020 US presidential election's result was fraudulent and Donald Trump was the true winner.

woodruffw 4y ago
That's the most recent application; it comes more originally from one of the primary scapegoats used by the Nazis against the European Jews[1]. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie
- Hnrobert42 4y ago
  True. I meant it in both senses. That is, if we don’t actively examine our biases, we are susceptible to whatever big lie is the Big Lie of the time.
- danans 4y ago
  The concept of a great lie or deception is really far older, present even in the biblical descriptions of Satan as the "Great Deceiver".
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    It's a term of art, referring to a specific kind of propaganda. I don't think it was inspired by that particular euphemism for Satan.
    - danans 4y ago
      > I don't think it was inspired by that particular euphemism for Satan. Agreed, just as the usage referring to denial of the 2020 US presidential election was not inspired by its usage by the Nazis. My point is only that "Big Lie/Liar" or some variant thereof has been a phrase used rhetorically for millennia.
      - woodruffw 4y ago
        I think the connection between the Big Lie of Nazism and the Big Lie of our former president is pretty clear: it’s a well-understood historical term, with relevant parallels. I find it difficult to believe that American journalists, an otherwise well-read and historically informed community of people, would conjure the concept without intending it as a reference. And certainly in that fashion more than as a prosaic form of “this lie was extra big.” Edit: For example, here is an NPR article that explicitly makes the connection between the two Big Lies[1]. [1]: https://www.npr.org/2021/12/23/1065277246/trump-big-lie-jan-6-election https://www.npr.org/2021/12/23/1065277246/trump-big-lie-jan-...
        danans 4y ago
        > the connection between the Big Lie of Nazism and the Big Lie of our former president is pretty clear I agree that if the actual location of the truth is disregarded they are similar. However, in these cases, the truth is on the opposite side of the accusation from each other. Hitler untruthfully accused Jews of promoting a lie, and hence blaming them for Germany's defeat in WW1 and problems afterwards. Whereas the former president has truthfully been accused of promoting a lie that he won the previous election. When the truth is on the opposite side of the accusation in either case, they are really quite different usages of the phrase. > I find it difficult to believe that American journalists, an otherwise well-read and historically informed community of people, would conjure the concept without intending it as a reference I don't think there is any intentional journalistic allusion happening by using the term. "Big" and "Lie" are such utterly common words by themselves and together in English that people readily understand them in the immediately relevant context. Calling it a "Great Misrepresentation" or something else would be beating around the bush instead of just calling it what it is.
        woodruffw 4y ago
        I think you're confusing yourself: Hitler's Big Lie was the lie that the Jews promoted a falsehood. Trump's Big Lie was the lie that he actually won the US election. In both cases, the direction of the lie is the same. Your confusion seems to stem from the fact that the original Big Lie is a lie about a lie. But this doesn't change the actual structural, namely: a Big Lie is a gross distortion of truth, so gross that its believers take its size to be evidence of veracity itself. Both Hitler's and Trump's Big Lie conform to this exact structure: the lies of International Jewry and a Stolen Election are so great, so inconceivable, that they stagger the listener into consideration. > I don't think there is any intentional journalistic allusion happening I gave you a link to an article where the allusion is direct and explicit. Or do you think they came up with the phrase themselves, Googled it, and retconned it into place?
- rvz 4y ago
  Exactly. Like the West's "Big Lie" on the whole 'War on Terror' operation justifying and using the media to fool the public with Iraq having possession of "Hidden WMDs in Iraq with Saddam Hussein about to launch them in minutes"; as a justification of invasion and repeating this lie when they knew it was false. A propaganda technique which fooled the world into a forever war that never should have happened in the first place which Wikipedia won't mention or tell you about.
  - runesofdoom 4y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationale_for_the_Iraq_War https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationale_for_the_Iraq_War "Accusations of faulty evidence and alleged shifting rationales became the focal point for critics of the war, who charge that the Bush administration purposely fabricated evidence to justify an invasion that it had long planned to launch."

reb 4y ago

Donald Trump's claim that he won the 2020 election.